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Why does it have to be that the Church gets "smarter"? People believed in a Triune God long before the word Trinity was developed, and longer still before all the controversies regarding procession of the Holy Spirit, the hypostatic union, the monarchy of the Father, etc. were debated over. In all this, I wouldn't say the Church "got smarter" in the sense that something new was devised...only that we realised what we'd always believed, but in a better, clearer way. Am I missing something here?

Oh, Alex, you beat me to it...you answered my question before I asked it, and I didn't see it...when will you stop this?! :p

With regard to the development of doctrine, I think that both Catholic and Orthodox would clearly accept the fact that Jesus gave us everything. We await nothing in the way of revelation. However, we do not yet know everything. Doctrine "develops" in the individual through the process of theosis. As we grow closer to God we understand the deposit of faith better. The Church, when faced with new situations, finds meaning in old understandings and applies it to these new situations and, thereby, develops doctrine.

It's not that there's anything new, it's that what is already there is infinitely deep and beyond our ability to comprehend totally. But each new understanding of what is already there is a development.

Edwards, deacon and sinner

Boric:

I must, in all honestly say, I am at a loss on just where you are coming from. You reply with the following -

[Many keep asking what is my church background ----keep guessing and calling me names and have pity on me! As of now I am an official card member of the byzantine catholic church with orthodox beliefs. I would like to go to an orthodox church but I am looking for one that wont turn me away because of my card membership to the catholic church. I dont believe I have to renounce my beliefs, if I believe the same things. As far as rome is concerned I recognize the orginizational and politcal elements of the papacy. So as of now I am caught in the tug of war between the institutions --cant worship were I want because they will turn me away.]

One doesn't become a Byzantine Catholic (or Orthodox for that matter) by paying dues and carrying around a membershp card. Neither of us are social clubs but churches of God. As such, one becomes a member through Baptism and/or chrismation. One remains a member in good standing through receiving the Sacraments required by the church throughout ones life.
One also retains their specific identity within that church by accepting the beliefs taught and practiced by that faith. Your beliefs are not Orthodox. I state this as an Orthodox Christian but I don't think there is one Byzantine Catholic, Orthodox Catholic, or Roman Catholic that posts here that will disagreee with me.
From your posts so far, your beliefs are neither those of the Byzantine Catholic Church nor the Orthodox Catholic Church. They are Fundalmentalist Protestant beliefs. Even to the point that you feel you have the right to interpret Scripture as you see fit. That is not Orthodox.

Forgive me for my honesty, but I'm beginning to think your posts are designed to bring dissention between the Orthodox and Byzantine Catholic posters. I hope I am wrong.

What I posted from scripture is from an Orthodox book called 'Dance, O Isaiah [Questions and answers o some f the differences between Eastern Orthodox Christianity and other faiths]. And I stick by them.

Bob

From Vladimir Soloviev, I want to learn to be free; to fly like an eagle in the quest of a deeper love affair with the Triune Lover of Mankind.

What irony, and how difficult this is for me to understand,but that very church that seems to me to be so hierarchically oppressive, has been a haven for free spirits and spiritual questers, like two of my favorites: the great soul, Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin ( Who can number the souls his splendid work saved from atheism in the '60"s?); and that precious soul, Father Louis Thomas Merton.

What beautiful souls have called Rome their home away from home, which, of course, is Heaven.

I admit, this is a pleasant and spiritually seductive mystery to ponder.

Even with your much vaunted conservatism, you are still free to launch a quest; to listen to the spirit; the Spirit who continues to lead us "unto all truth."

Do you realize how blessed you are?

Remain a Catholic,dear brother Broric, and continue your quest, for you certainly can find legions of soulmates within the Holy Catholic Church to share your journey.

I do admire your Catholic chutz-puh.

ER

"To live and develop, the Christian outlook needs an atmosphere of greatness and of connecting links."

Teilhard de Chardin

Dear Ephraim,

You have much to teach us, Friend!

I too have been inspired by Chardin and Merton.

Now I'll go back and reflect on your post again.

Alex

Certainly, God is not a museum curator.

That is a divine reality that we Orthodox seem to have a difficult time understanding.
(OK! Let the pots and pans fly. I'll take them on my fishing expedition this weekend!)


ER

Dear Ephraim,

Well, I'd say that someone with the kind of spiritual vision you so obviously and joyously have, together with your critical thinking skills and courage is definitely doing something right . . .

And when you do go angling, I'm sure you're the type who throws the really BIG fish back . . .

God bless,

Alex

Dear david, consider the Church in India started by st. Thomas that was not discovered until the 1500,s by jesuit missionaries. Were they deprived of the reality of the eucharist? They were never in communion with rome until the 1500's- its institutional development was different. Were they deprived of the eucharists. What if a colony of catholics is shiprecked on an Island and they have no priests or bishops and for many generations were isolated from the world. Do you think God would not meet them if they celibrated a eucharstic liturgy? Dont you know catholic theology also says that if the priest does not preform consecration properly that God will still give them eucharistic grace because of their faith. HUH-makes you wonder if those fundamentalists that believe their communion is the body and blood would recieve eucharstic grace too. Dave you should also know that the catechism is not dogma. Also Dave if God is God he can do what he wants. He does not need a priest or a host to give people grace-"O" is that in the catechism too? Many blessings on ER and Alex.
Orthoman keep calling me what you want and giving me non-factual evidence agianst my statment. I wish we can be one church together but as long as we have people focusing more on the institution instead of Jesus Christ it will never happen. May the wonderful mother of God pray for our unity. Religion is dead! JESUS is alive!

[ 02-28-2002: Message edited by: Broric ]

Broric,

What exactly is your purpose in posting on this Forum? You seem to post questions in a way that baits a specific response and then attack people for responding. You claim to be a Byzantine Catholic yet you speak like an Evangelical Fundamentalist Protestant Christian. What's the story?

Administrator

socratic dialog- I am learning. Sorry that you accuse me of being a protastant to, I happen to be extermely catholic. I guess people call you anything if they dont like what you have to say. I bet people would think the pope is a protastent for calling billy gram has brother and for saying that we can learn things from our protastent brothers. If you dont want me I will leave.

[ 02-28-2002: Message edited by: Broric ]

Broric,

Socratic dialog is a style of dialog in which a teacher asks a number of questions in order to cause a student to think. That is not what you have done. You have entered into a community, asked baiting questions and then verbally attacked people providing answers you don't like with your judgments. That is not the socratic method. I ask that in the future you present well-disciplined arguments of your position and do so in a charitable way. If you are here to ask questions the please do so without being so judgmental of the answers you disagree with.

Regarding the Rev. Billy Graham, I am very much an admirer of his faith and his work. To label someone a fundamental evangelical is not a put down. It is an acknowledgment that fundamental evangelicals think differently than we do. This does not mean we have nothing to learn from them.

Administrator

Dear Broric,

I thought I would address this topic because I am a descendant of one of the people baptised by Saint Thomas himself, and thus, while I don't have any famous people in my family, am privileged to say that mine is one of the oldest families in Christendom.

They weren't denied the Eucharist or the other sacraments. St. Thomas came to India, preaching the Gospel, healing, and working miracles. He baptised, "confirmed" (I don't know if they had chrism that far back), offered the Liturgy, ordained priests, deacons, and bishops, and otherwise performed the sacraments. The clerics he ordained followed a very rudimentary liturgical form which sadly doesn't survive, but we suppose it was the Jewish synagogue service which Thomas knew, coupled by Christian readings (he brought with him the Gospel of Matthew in Hebrew) and the Eucharist, celebrated by bishops and priests, with deacons.

After a bunch of years, traders from Persia found us, and a bishop was sent to us, and we adopted the Assyrian liturgy and customs, and they sent us our bishops.

Much later, Saint Francis Xavier preached in north-west-central India, and the Portuguese found us, and messed around with us. Most of the Assyrians became Eastern Catholics, and almost totally latinised, while a small faction stayed Assyrian. Another bunch allied themselves with the Syrian Orthodox Patriarchate of Antioch, and thus the Syrian rite came to India.

There's a lot to be said, I just kept it short...

It's not that we were separated from Rome as much as it was we were isolated from the rest of the Church. You'll admit, I'm sure, that the Church for the most part was around the Mediterranean. Well, India's kinda far away, and so we weren't really "with" anyone...in one sense, because of that reality, we were "with" everyone.

I do remember reading once that one of our own was among the 318 Holy Fathers of Nicaea, one Bishop John of India.

Go John! Go John!

The validity of our Eucharist or other sacraments, or our "Church-ness" did not derive from our unity or isolation from Rome, or Constantinople, or Alexandria, or Antioch ( ), or Jerusalem. It came from the Holy Orders our bishops and priests received from the hands of Thomas, who with those hands verified for us all the Resurrection of the Son of God, and who was an Apostle of the same Holy Lord.

Broric,

It's interesting that you maintain this theological notion that one does not have to be Christian to be Catholic or Orthodox. And yet espouse a theological doctrine that Protestants should recieve the Eucharist from Catholic and Orthodox Priests because they are united to Catholics *that might happen to be Christian* by ways of the Holy Spirit (what is equaly interesting is that you don't extend this brotherhood of the Holy Spirit out the devote of the Buddhist or Hindue). And it is that bond of the Holy Spirit or unity of the Holy Spirit that you see as the lone and sole Christian Church. The problem Broric, and you might rectify this for me, what makes you so certian that the Protestant that holds hands with you is so full of the Holy Spirit? Most serial killers had a first kill prior to their arrest, at onetime their doings were in the dark before they came to light before the public. And how certain can you be that this Protestant - Christ like in all his ways before you and others - is not sexualy molesting his 10 year old daughter behind closed doors at night, in the privacy of his home? So how would you propose safe guarding the Eucharist from Protestants who are in a state of grave mortal sin yet never go to confession (thus the Priest has no way of knowing if they ever struggle to change)? Would you suppose an *institutional* Church devise away? But then you don't believe in the institutional Church do you? Your certain who the Protestant is (you want him recieving the Eucharist) - Christian. But your not sure who the Catholic or Orthodox is even though that is where the sacrament of reconciliation is.

And as for the Church looking exactly as the early Church. Must it? I mean the early Church did not encounter Makassae warriors beheading their foe and drinking the blood from the chopped head, the early Church did not have to place the burden of carrying on the higher and more ordered aspects of civilization - when the Western civilization began to collapse, nor did the Church Fathers live to contemplate space exploration, the race for nuclear armament, Islamic Spain, the Ottoman Balkans, Mexican and Colombian drug Cartels, Russian black market of body organs, Communist China and it forced abortion, the early Church never danced the Tango or the Samba, it never lived under international law or NATO protection, and it certainly never did live... in a world that outlawed slavery and the slave trade - two fundamental pillars of human rights issues that dramaticaly shapes a difference between our world now and that world up until the 1800's - a world of slaves and masters I might remind you that was fully supported and endorsed by your early Christian Church. I think it is worth noteing that it is the *institutional* Church that provided Western military Generalship with the *right of war* morality. And it is to Rome that leaders of the world know they must moraly contend with on a political level. You might not like living with Rome, but you wouldn't want to live with out her. kind of like a woman

Dear Administrator please read plato's Euthyphro and know my style of seeking knoweldge is similar. I am not attaking any one I would like to accuse you of the same thing calling me a protastent when nothing I have said goes agianst the magisterium. You and the others are Guilty and I am just participating in stirring your minds up to seek truth. You also need to read the apostolic letter: That they may all be one: it teaches catholics that they can look to other Christian bodies as sources of truth about the mystery of Christ and his church. "Mor E" thank you for your information, I was trying to make a point and should have used a better example. I would like to learn more about your church.