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Dear Edwin,

You are so right, Friend in Christ!

I guess this priest was willing to concelebrate the Divine Liturgy with his married colleague as long as he was sure he had not "polluted" himself and broken the rule that a married priest cannot have sex (or sleep in the same room for that matter) with his wife the night before.

Again, I agree with you that it was none of his business.

This reminds me of an episode in the life of the English medieval saint, Blessed Richard Rolle of Thornton, as he wrote himself.

He was so concerned with women's necklines that one woman turned it on him by saying, "Easy, Brother, calm yourself down!" He never concerned himself with such again!

The Eastern Church also prescribes certain penitential prayers for any priest should he experience any sexual "movement" during the night prior to serving the Divine Liturgy.

He is to then get up immediately to perform the Rule which also involves calling himself "worse than an animal" etc.

Healthy sexual attitudes all around . . .

Alex

Serge I agree. Does that surprise you ? However basic problem - shortage of Permanent deacons in Glasgow - none, zero, zilch ! We tend to go for transitional and they are only in Parishes for a short time - actually I think Glasgow has but 1 at the moment and he is in Rome till his Ordination to the Priesthood on June 29 - and by the way we don't have an Archbishop for that[ or a Bishop either] - and you [ Byzantine Churches] think you've problems ?
Minor orders in the Roman Church - don't really exist except in the Seminaries as a 'stepping stone'

Oh it's a looooong story !
Angela

Edwin,

If the next Metropolitan Archbishop decides to ordain married men to the priesthood period, I will be pleasently surprised. Perhaps even a little shocked. But I wouldn't hope for much more than that.

Anthony

Dear Angela,

You can minister to me any time!!

Your Slave,

Alex

FrDeaconEd wrote: "Holy Orders, as the full surrender of self to God, is an impediment to marriage which would require reclaiming part of that self in order to give it to the wife."

What part of the self would he have to reclaim? Anyway, if the statistics claimed on this thread are true (70,000 laicized priests) then Holy Mother Church can un-surrender those selves like they do with Marrital Annulments. Quite simply, the rules seem to determine the abilities of the Holy Spirit here and not the other way around.

But here we have the ultimate confusion between 'celibacy' (an evangelical virtue) and 'marriage' (a sacrament). It is not a matter of ordination versus marriage (between two sacraments that demand a total self-giving). Marriage, unlike priesthood is a means to salvation, hence its sacramentalization. Celibacy is a gift.

I recommend the ByzChurch offers only two options for ordination: either marriage as a non-religious/monastic priest or monasticism. Mandatory celibacy on non-monastic priests is a hybrid situation as much as Byzantine Catholicism is. Try as much as you can, you can never chose one over the other; hence, the resignation that one must live with it - even though lay priests never take 'vows' but, instead, make 'promises.' An interesting development to circumlocute around the laws and traditions we derived. My two options will give a priest a 'home' and a community; no need to go searching for intimacy off the margins.

From a pure sociological point of view, celibacy without a community does not offer any structure. Priests become islands and risk developing problems. They have to rely on developing ad hoc relationships in the parish or keep busy, none of which can take the place of a soulmate and some regular doses of therapeutic pillowtalk to aid in flushing out the day-to-day mental frustrations.

It is interesting to note that the average age of a priest dropped considerably after the 1929 mandate while the average life expectancy of a male went up.

[ 01-08-2002: Message edited by: Edwin ]

The Assyrian Church of the East does not have a canon against marriage after ordination, unless it was added in 1975. Interesting that in about 1970, the Patriarch of the ACE got married. No one removed him from office. Well actually he was forcefully removed, as he was gunned down in LA in 1975! he was the last of the king-patriarchs of the ACE.

The Armenians I believe allow deacons to marry after ordination.

anastasios

Dear Edwin,

A brilliant post, Friend in Christ!

I especially think your insight on the matter of a supportive community for celibate priests hits the nail on the head.

Celibate priests can, ideally, and have, form communal structures ("Canons" "Third Orders"), but with the pressures they experience today, that is becoming less and less so.

I believe that a monastic environment, such as in the East, is a tremendous support to priests and everyone involved - having lived in one myself.

I would also like to see Monks and Monasteries interact with laity in the world more and share their rich spirituality with us who can benefit immensely from it.

My grandfather, as I've said, was a married priest with seven children.

I came across a principal of a Catholic school recently who asked me if I was "Fr. John Roman's grandson?"

He then proceeded to hug me and said that my grandfather had taught him religion and inspired him to become a Catholic teacher.

A bishop visited his school and asked the children what the Ten Commandments were, he said.

He put up his hand and said, "They are a road sign that tell us the route we are to take to get to Heaven."

At this, the bishop's eyes welled up and he kissed him on the head.

The principal said, his eyes welling up, "I told the bishop not to thank me, but Fr. Roman."

Everyone's eyes welled up by the end of it all . . .

Alex

Edwin,

I see what you're saying about the two options: celibate monk or married priest. But I don't think it should be an either-or. While I agree that many celibates can't handle parish life, the examples of many Coptic monk priests in parishes shows that it can work. Also, one priest I know(not a monk) said he wouldn't WANT to live in a monastery, and he is not having any "issues;" Serge's priest is a hieromonk that has a parish, Fr. Joseph at Holy Transifguration in Virginia is an Archimandrite... let's not disenfranchise folks who would WANT this!

anastasios

Thank you, Alex. I can't understand why so many people are so interested in what goes on inside a man's pants when their minds should be on God. Such concerns about the private parts of folks tells me a lot about these people. The un-official church rules about fasting from marital conjugality is amusing if not outright funny. Our dysfunctioinal society needs icons of marital fidelity and unity. We shouldn't feel guilty because some folks 'enjoy' successful marriages sanctified by the Church. Does a king or queen hide their crowns in public? I am sorry for those families that experience brokeness. It shows how frail our world is. It makes me sick to hear how some priests are more concerned about the sexaul activities of others. Do they ask their married brothers and sisters if they just did it the night before. In this respect, inquiring whether a married priest fasted from sex the night before is a sign of a perverted mentality, a sickness.

Dear Anastasios,

Excellent point, Friend in Christ!

The Russian Church used to insist that anyone who wished to become a parish priest HAD to marry, otherwise it was "get thee to a monastery."

I read of one priest who didn't want to marry, but felt he had a mission as a parish priest.

A girl suffering from cancer, having only months to live, heard of him and offered to marry him to enable him to realize his vocation.

They married and she reposed in the Lord a few months later.

Alex

Anastasios,

Maybe I should clarify myself. As bishops take on the habit while remaining in church ministry (outside the monastery), monastic priests should be allowed to minister too. I probably wasn't too clear on this. Many Eastern missions were started around established monasteries. Thanks.

Naughty naughty...

Dear Catholicos,

But aren't women so absolutely and completely WONDERFUL?

I thank God for the gift of my wife. It was St Josaphat who said, "Woman gives man his beginning in this world, and then later gives him the strength to get through life."

As for me, I need to be hugged, as do we all. Touch is so powerful and so needed. Perhaps that is one of the reasons why our Lord performed so many miracles through touch, when He could have done otherwise.

Have a great day, Your All-Holiness!

Alex