www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News The South Shall Rise Again!

keeping out of your politial statements on purpose that quote there rather worried me. How is it that Protestantism cannot add to the faiths? Is not the Western Right Orthodox liturgy a corrected Anglican one? Does not the Western Orthodox church use a corrected Common Book of Prayer?

To be sure, Protstants have some important issues incorrect, but to say that they do not have something to add is also incorrect. Perhaps if it is only the Protestant zeal for missionary owkr that we should add to our own that would be worthwhile. There was/is a long thread on here that went into length the lacking missionary work of the Orthodox, perhaps some investigation into the success of the Protestant missionaries in Africa and Asia could be of help?

Remember, Protestants are not only our "friends" as you write, they are our "separated brethren" according to the church.

In His Name,
Stephen

I think you have to remember that Protestants are not a unified body with uniform beliefs. The liberal Protestants, such as Episcopalians and U.S.A. Presbyterians, tend to think we conservative Catholics both Eastern and Western, are too harsh, judgmental and unloving because we don't endorse every sin they condone. The Southern Baptists are actually working with us on pro-life causes, and with pro-life organizations. By the way, the Southern Baptists now celebrate Advent, which they would never have done a few years ago. Some independent churches that are more fundamental, don't have much to do with us. So I would have to say there have been some exchanges between Protestants and Catholics that have been beneficial to both. If there is one thing I have learned from Protestants, it's that we Eastern Catholics are too insular and self absorbed. We need to get out and make ourselves much more familiar to the rest of the world.

We must remember that in the ECUSA, PCUSA, ELCA, & UMC are very orthodox (on Trinity, Christ) and faithful Christians who love and serve Christ and have not yet accepted the idea that their respective churches are beyond saving from the damage caused by liberal leaders. In the end we may see schism between conservatives and liberals in all these churches. While we may find the official leadership in these churches shameful we must remember their are still good clergy and laity fighting the good fight in these churches.

Fr. Deacon Lance

jp, you need to move down here for several years and then start talking about it.

Concerning your reversion to mid-19th Century Southern culture and even mid-20th Century Southern culture, I'd like to point out that a lot of our culture, including the importance of church attendance and attendance to spiritual matters, comes from the heavy influence of African-American culture on everyone in the South. The contributions and respect for what that culture has done for the South is overwhelmingly understood and appreciated by all ethnic groups here (if you even want to call them that).

Yes, the South is traditionally Protestant. However, the point has been made in this discussion that the zeal affects Orthodox and Catholic parshis as well. The original article was about what? Bible-belt CATHOLICS.

This is probably due to the proselytization problems of the South. Here parishoners will get educated or leave. Those who stay tend to know the faith much better and those who convert make a very unpopular choice. Building a church requires people to really band together.

There are a lot of great churches up in the Mid-North and the Northeast. In general, the culture of the South holds religion to a more elevated status than the North (I don't mean places like Utah and Idaho).

For instance, what I find most humorous is how seriously some of the immigrants in my Serbian parish take their faith. They get bombarded every day by this culture and then go to our priest and ask about what they're hearing from their co-workers, friends and television preachers. Go ahead and laugh. I can't turn on the TV on any morning without half the stations being preachers (I don't have cable). They're wrong, but they force these people to THINK about their faith. Yes, some have become Protestant. But it's a two-way street.

This culture has had a POSITIVE effect on ALL Christians here.

My parents are from Oregon. If we hadn't moved to Oklahoma when I was a kid, I'd probably be more like my cousins and show up to church on occasion whenever it's convenient.

When I visit Oregon I get wild stares when we pray for our food when we go out to eat. Down here, nobody cares.

jp, I don't know why you can't just say that the stats are right.

Deacon Lee and Cizinec,
the both of you good souls couldn't hit the nail anymore on the head than you already have. yes, ultimately the Protestants will divide into two camps: those who I call Classic Christians and those who are Liberal. Yes, the South is quite religious, sometimes so that I get annoyed by politicos who wrap themselves in the Flag, Christianity or both, but hey, what can you do?
But what gets me is the insinuation of those who say the South is not religious, but Protestant. MEANING? that is a grave insult to half of my family who are devout Protestant Christians, to Pastor Roger of this Forum (Berean), to my Baptist seminary brothers and sisters, to my Protestant friends, the list goes on and on. on top of that I must be the biggest D@^%ed fool to have gone to a Protestant seminary and to have wasted my time with those who are not "religious", but Protestants. how old is this person from Michigan who has posted such drivel?I don't expect an apology, I'm a bit P.O.ed right now, but I do forgive, and give allownaces for immaturity. may the Blessed Theotokos pray for JPOrthodox and each of us. as I tell some real Yankee (and I have Northern relatives and close dear friends from the Union states) haters here, and I will tell JPOrthodox:
The Civil War is over, get over it!
Much Love (as I can muster at the moment),
Jonn

Perhaps what triggered JP Orthodox was this:

This could mean a lot of things including, at its worst, syncretism, or just more of the Protestant cultural influence that seeps into Orthodox/Catholic thinking in America. But the TIME article suggested that the South is very fertile ground for authentic Orthodox/Catholic Faith, not only becouase of the generally religious ambience, but because of the fact that the laity needs to be well-catechized to discuss their faith with their Baptist/Protestant neighbors.

Dear Friends,

I'll throw my two cents in!

There are very "Catholic" elements among various Protestant groups that can be very inspiring.

Up here is a Presbyterian church in honour of a 19th century preacher, Henry Cooke who actually fought against a tendency in the Canadian Presbyterian Church then to go towards . . . Arianism!

And they built a church in his honour - yes, I can see why and appreciate his witness that belongs to ALL Christians! Wouldn't you agree?

And the Methodist holy ones, such as Francis Asbury, John Wesley et al. - they have lots to say to us about disciplined holy living as they often put us to shame! Wouldn't you agree?

And the Anglican saints and their witness to Catholic doctrine and tradition - inspiring, wouldn't you also agree?

It is precisely a number of these Protestants who have found their way (the hard way) to Catholicism and Orthodoxy.

Their lives and witness are truly impressive.

Wouldn't you agree?

Alex

Alex,

Everybody here knows you don't have ANY cents! :p

John,

Dang, I wasn't that upset. I think jp was trying to help out the Yankee image! I used to live in Michigan and I hate to think of them as true Yankees anyway (as opposed to Yanks, which includes almost everyone here except Alex ).

Alex, why am I picking on you today????

Oooh, how the Lutherans hate Wesley. All I heard about in my Lutheran college was that awful legalism practiced by Wesleyans and Arminians and Catholics... Of course, Catholics were bordering on a cult - after all, they have the "cult of Mary" don't they?

LOL!

Tammy

Yeah, that "cult of Mary" is almost as bad as that "cult of Luther," isn't it? I understand Wesley was a total curmudgeon who made life unpleasant for nearly everyone.

LOL! Until you tell them that Luther prayed the rosary and believed in the ever-virginity of Mary. Then all of a sudden he hadn't quite overcome his Catholic ways and Malancthan (sp?) was the true Lutheran!

Roy, OKIES ROCK!!!

I also grew up in the home town of Oral Roberts, Billy James Hargis, and many others lesser known of the same ilk. At my RC schools growing up I would occasionally see people with signs informing us of our damned status.

When cable TV first came out in Tulsa nearly all of the channels had some kind of preacher shows with the exception of HBO and the public station.

It was interesting that at my Christian Brothers high school in Tulsa there were quite a few non-Catholics, especially Anglicans, Lutherans, a few Jewish kids, and Orthodox, whose parents did not want them to be in fundamentalist schools, (which abound there).

We had quite a few African American students whose parents were either cradles or had converted to Catholicism as well, and some non-Catholic AA kids whose parents just felt much more comfortable with their kids in that environment, which was on the whole more tolerant than many of the white hard-core fundamentalist schools. And of course, being Oklahoma, we had quite a few Catholic Native American kids.

Indeed it seems inherent in many of the people in that region of the country what Msgr. Luigi Guissani referred to as "the religious sense". As has been shown, that sense when manifested in conversions to Orthodoxy or Catholicism becomes quite a vibrant and living faith.

a coiple of things. when I mentioned Hegel, it was a convenient reflection on a convenient plan of History, so to say. it had nothing to do, in my context, with syncretism, but as a theory that things do move along, and as relgion is the foundation of culture, religion also reacts to it environment, without necessarily losing basic tenets. the Liberal would have you believe otherwise, but as Christianity is a revealed religion, and not a product of human beings, we are quite safe. when you share the Gospel, you need to speak the language of the culture you find your self in, or you will get nowheres. I have a number of missionary friends that will substantiate this, and have, in our conversations. you cannot export American culture with Christ, you do need to take the best of the culture you find yourself in, and use that for your point of departure. look at St. Paul's sermon on Mars Hill, for just one example. true, he didn't make a lot of converts with that sermon, but there is a principle.
Protestantism needs to be respected and not vilified, I am speaking of the Protestantism that is Bible based and honoring, and shares our views on Christ and Who He is, and what He has done and is doing for us.
I know about Luther's devotion to our Blessed Mother. I also know that he held to the Real Presence in the Lord's Supper, and that divided Protestantism as Melancthon and he disagreed on this important point, thus we have the Lutheran school and the Reformed school as the logical conclusion (the Reformed see the Lord's Supper as a memorial, not as a Mystery)of a divided Protestantism.
There are good believers in these two schools, and I can see them with as de jure as well as defacto.
Much Love,
Jonn

Dear Friends,

RE: John Wesley,

Wesley was preaching to a group of Protestants once and was telling them about the need for a disciplined rule of prayer, fasting and church-attendance . . .

One Protestant yelled out, "The man's a Papist!!"

There was a Jesuit priest in the crowd who came dressed inconspicuously who then responded out loud, "He is not - although I wish he were!"

Cheers,

Alex

If this goes on, and good Protestants come to us, it will be
REVIVAL TIME!
Much Love,
Jonn