www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Converting to Orthododoxy

You have chosen guite a journey for yourself! A true Odyssesian adventure, indeed.

Unless you have family or friends who are Greek and Greek Orthodox-in a devout sense-you would do yourself a great favor by beginning your pilgrimage within a parish and jurisdiction that has a history of welcoming and nurturing converts, like the Antiochians.

O theos con dasoo,

Abdur

For one of countless reasons I am so grateful to be a Catholic - go to:

http://blogforlovers.blogspot.com

I say this with deep conviction:

There just isn't anything like the great Catholic family!

Sorry to say, but many of your fellow Catholics-including the posters here-keep reminding the rest of us of just how dysfunctional that family is. Also, many Eastern Catholics seem to believe they are the
step-children of your "family."

That certainly is the impression one gleans from reading the history of the Eastern Catholic churches.

Abdur

[ 08-03-2002: Message edited by: traveler ]

Gerard wrote:

I say this with deep conviction:

There just isn't anything like the great Catholic family![/b]

To which Abdur replies:

[i]Sorry to say, but many of your fellow Catholics-including the posters here-keep reminding the rest of us of just how disfunctional that family is. Also, many Eastern Catholics seem to believe they are the
step-children of your "family."

That certainly is the impression one gleans from reading the history of the Eastern Catholic churches.

As I said, my conviction is deep and based on long experience as well. There is simply nothing, as I see it, comparable to the great Catholic family. Perhaps no other Church has as many problems! Oh well. That comes with being, by far, the largest Church of all - made up of real people with real problems.

But, in my opinion, no other Church has produced such remarkable men and women - and the most varied and "interesting" to boot. Look at the one whose death we remember today (and to whom my link pointed): the great Catholic writer, Flannery O'Connor. Incomparable! (And she was utterly rooted in the Catholic Church).

I have been around long enough, as well, to see that the Catholic family is not the only "dysfunctional" one. I have spent some time on Orthodox boards and have been impressed mostly by the incredible tearing up of others and fighting over the most peripheral matters (and Christ hardly ever being mentioned or his own words - almost never).

I have been subscribed to some Eastern Catholic boards and while not perfect I have found for more spirituality there. As I do right on this board.

I stand by what I said: I really do not think there is any "family" quite like the great Catholic family. And I know no warmer hearth.

[Dear Justin,

You can join the OCA or the Carpatho-Rusyn Orthodox dioceses by profession of faith, confession, and communion, if you wish, under normal circumstances.]

That is correct. My own parish priest who was Byzantine Catholic, would accept you through Confession, Communion, and prifession of faith only. That, and a committment that once you have received Communion as an Orthodox Catholic, you will receive it only from an Orthodox priest from now on until unity between the two churches is achieved.

The OCA is recognized as a canonical Orthodox Catholic Church by every other canonical Orthodox Catholic Church in the world. Though some do not recognize its autocephalous status, they never the less recognize its canonical status.

Congratualtions on your wonderful decision.

OrthoMan

In all fairness, most of the posters one must endure on Orthodox boards are atypical of the Orthodox in general and they act in ways that the Orthodox members of my family find rude and repulsive.

Yes, there is great beauty to Catholicism, as there is to Orthodoxy and Sufism.

Abdur

Abdur:

I once heard that Bosniac and Albanian Catholicism is full of mysticism, a mysticism that has been lost in the modern world. Maybe it was a remain of the gnostics. When Islam arrived that mysticism became part of the Bosniac Islam.

Servant:

It's hard to take these decisions, sometimes. The results of the recentl Ecumenical dialogue have been very dissapointing.
On one side I see that the Roman Church talks a lot about Ecumenism, sometimes with nice phrases, but the filioque and many other confusing doctrines that are rejected by the East, are still there.
They want the Orthodox Church to work for the unity, but they have no interest in reaching an agreement related to faith and doctrine. The problem is that when HH Pope John Paul II ask for forgiveness (like in Greece) the Orthodox Church views it with suspicion because it's not clear if he does it as a sign of true repentance or as a sign of his own superiority.
(after asking for forgiveness, he said "the Pope and the Church are always asking for forgiveness, while the others are always silent. Maybe it is fair").
On the other side the Orthodox Churches are sometimes arrogant. The defense of their own autonomy and independence often becomes a sense of nationalism "ethnic superiority".

Dear Justin,

I hope that you will find peace and grace in your journey. I hope that you can find a parish community that helps you grow in wisdom.

Since you are so young, I hope that you will also have the patience to work with your parents on your journey. At about your age, Jesus felt the urge to be about his Father's business, but nevertheless deferred to His earthly parents. What does His example say to you?

djs

[ 08-03-2002: Message edited by: djs ]

[ 08-03-2002: Message edited by: djs ]

Yes, Remie,that does seem to be running problem in Orthodoxy, but there is still a large amount of problems within the Catholic Church that need to be solved by someone chosen by God to undertake the task. (the liberal/traditional issues, the left wing segments of the clergy as well as the right wing, etc.)

All in all, there is still the ethnic issue within the Eastern Catholic churches as well, all though I'm too sure if that's a bad thing. I mean, in my Church, the ethnicity is highly Ukrainian, so there are a lot of Ukrainian-related activities. Yet, I hardly ever hear mention of the Ukrainian Saints nor our patriarch, His Grace Lubomyr, rather, there is much about the pope and there are many things that I would see as "laid back" attitudes. These laid-back themes are things that are all to easily overlooked, like the removal of certain traditional acts from the liturgy, the use of pews (something widespread in Orthodoxy as well, as far as I know), and the fact that no matter how many times I ask, the priests never get back to me about becoming an acolyte . But that's all little stuff, in my opinion, as I 've always been picky and noticing these things that in the end aren't really that important. I suppose it's the number of things that add up and the history of the treatment of these Churches that are bothering me.

And yet, I do not feel bitter, rather I feel filled with hope, despite the fact that I eagerly await the phone call from the priest (I left a message last night).

Thank you all,
-Justin

p.s. What is sufism again? The mystic movement within Islam? I heard most musleems hate it.

Well, St. Ignatius Church called, I'm going to divine liturgy tomorrow if my father allows it and I will speak with the priest of that church to see what I will have to do to become a member of the Holy Antiochian Orthodox Church.

Peace be to all

-Justin

Justin,

Thank you for your participation in this Forum.

I highly recommend that you look first to your parents for your religious formation since the Lord has directed us to always honor and respect them. If they are not in a position to answer your questions or assist you along the path you are traveling, then ask them to put you in touch with a priest or other spiritual elder who can help provide you with appropriate food for your spiritual growth.

If the Lord is calling you to become an Orthodox Christian and / or a priest, He will not forget that call. Use your time in high school to pray and study, giving great respect and attention to the wishes of your parents. When you turn 18 and have spent much time in prayer and spiritual study you will be more ready to understand and make a decision.

Prayers and best wishes,

Administrator

Justin:

I think the Administrator has given you some very good advice. If you are not yet eighteen, then the first thing to do is 'Honor thy Mother and thy Father' as the commandment tells us.
At your age, you have your whole life ahead of you. So don't rush into anything.
Providing your parents approve, then talk with the Orthodox priest. If they do not approve, then honor their wishes and continue to study the Orthodox faith and pray for guidance. The Holy Spirit will guide you and ultimately you will end up where he wants you. But in his time, not yours.
Most Orthodox priests I know will not pressure you to convert, especially at your age. In fact, they will probably give you the same advice I am.
So, either way, take your time and only convert if and when you are convinced that the Orthodox Catholic faith is the faith that will enable you to have a complete and more personal relationship with God than the others.
And, if you leave the faith of your parents for Othodoxy always respect the faith of your parents. For it is the faith that helped mold you into who and what you are today.
Good luck in your journey my friend. But walk, don't run!

OrthoMan

I once heard someone say that if the Catholic Church had a parade, first you would see the pope, then the most Holy Theotokos, then you would see Jesus.

Now I don't find this particularly amusing but there is some truth to it and I would certainly argue that Gerard Serafin's argument is the opposite of the truth. Only in the Orthodox Church do you find Christ as the central focus.

But this was not why I responded.

Gerard said:

Of course this is important. But it is not important in the way it is alluded but because we seek the salvation of our souls. This is important because Christ is the Head of His Church and only through Him will we find our salvation.

We must break free of this relativism. Reading the posts here and elsewhere one realizes that many do not actually believe. It is like talking about "the celebration of a life" instead of a funeral. Everything is done to cover up the reality of the matter and pretend that things are not what they are.

Religion itself is part of the consumerist society now. Religion has become a commodity that we consume; consequently, it has to be packaged in designer packages that attract shoppers, encompassed with acceptable euphemisms that cloak reality, sugar laden and artificially flavored and colored to suit contemporary tastes that have been shaped by professional marketers. There is no room for faith, there is only a desire for a comforting affirmation of "self." Either God does it our way, or we shop around for a different "god."

And this is the real face of Ecumenism, the reason why people can unite without unity of faith, the real purpose of "Liturgical innovation", and the reduction of liturgical language to the point that its meaning is undermined. This is why, in some places, we now have "Liturgy for Dummies" type services.

If Orthodoxy is the witness of the Truth of the Gospel, then to be Orthodox also means to
strongly resist these consumerist innovations in the Church and in our lives.

I'm sorry to say Gerard, but this is the exact taste I have after reading your posts on this thread. You prefer "Catholicism" because it is much more interesting for *you*. What is missing in your post as advice to Justin is why it is most important to find God through His ONE and ONLY Church so that he might be placed in an "intensive care" healing environment so that he might be saved. That is what is most important.

Justin, ask yourself, is that what you truly believe and want, to be placed in an environment in which your soul can be healed and find God in TRUTH! If that is what you believe then the age of 13 applies according to the Church, not the age of 18. You do what you must to save your soul with respect and love for your parents! Do not do anything blindly but do much spiritual reading and understand the road you have chosen.

Matthew 10:32-42 "Whoever acknowledges me before men, I will also acknowledge him before my Father in heaven. But whoever disowns me before men, I will disown him before my Father in heaven. Do not suppose that I have come to bring peace to the earth. I did not come to bring peace, but a sword. For I have come to turn a man against his father, a daughter against her mother, a daughter-in-law against her mother-in-law--a man's enemies will be the members of his own household.'
Anyone who loves his father or mother more than me is not worthy of me; anyone who loves his son or daughter more than me is not worthy of me; and anyone who does not take his cross and follow me is not worthy of me. Whoever finds his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life for my sake will find it.

He who receives you receives me, and he who receives me receives the one who sent me. Anyone who receives a prophet because he is a prophet will receive a prophet's reward, and anyone who receives a righteous man because he is a righteous man will receive a righteous man's reward. And if anyone gives even a cup of cold water to one of these little ones because he is my disciple, I tell you the truth, he will certainly not lose his reward."

[ 08-03-2002: Message edited by: OrthodoxyOrDeath ]

Dear Justin,

I hope you have a good experience sharing in the Divine Liturgy tomorrow morning. I will pray for you, as I celebrate on Sunday. May the Lord direct your steps!

I would like to echo some of the thoughts of our esteemed Administrator, as he suggests patience. Of course, there is no rush to make your decision.

I am delighted that you are open to the future, and will be praying about what direction God may be leading you.

The important conversion is within our hearts! It is a conversion that we cannot make just once, and then the decision is made and the job is done. Real conversion of life is a commitment to turn to God again and again, day after day, morning after morning.

I even suspect, (I may be wrong of course!) that you hear God calling you to conversion, but it is this interior and spiritual task that awaits you most of all. God is calling you to conversion! But perhaps it is this "habit of a lifetime" that is the most important task.

You remind me of my own vocation, and the fact that God is calling me too, to conversion of life, and to re-dedicate myself in his service.

Let us pray for each other, as we seek to follow his calling. I will place a particle on the diskos for you tomorrow during the preparation. Please remember me.

Elias

Bless me, Holy father Elias!

Thank you all for your wonderful advice, though I feel as though I should explain more as to why I am doing this so....unexpectedly. The reason is because I feel that since I reached the age of reason, my holy ignorance (is that the right term?) has been removed, and that it is my duty to go about following the call that the Lord has given me.

And I assure you, this is not something I have run into recently, rather, I have been hearing it for quite some time now, like a whisper that I could not catch. I know now more about my story and about why I must seek both conversion to Orthodoxy and conversion of life. The principle reason is this, since I've become traditionalist (can I even use sucha term, truly?), I've felt attached somehow to the Orthodox Church, that is one of the reasons I wanted to become eastern Catholic. And when I felt like it wasn't enough, like there was still something missing, I swelled my mind with pride and paraded about like a wise man, preaching truth with a sinning and hypocritcal tongue. I think I knew this, somehow, and that is why I buried myself deeper in apologetics against everyone, to make my pride an insurmountable wall. And so, I recently thought about this hard, and I know now that my salvation has been offered for a long time, I've just been finding ways to try and take it from the offerer, full of pride. Now, I must throw myself into humility, and the one way to do this is to join the Orthodox Church.

For those of you who think that I am doing this because I am dissatisfied with the Catholic Church, I must say, nothing could be further from the truth. Quite the contrary, actually, I am gladdened that the Catholic Church managed to stand up against wave after wave of heresies that threatened to steal Her apostolicity. Another large reason I feel called to Orthodoxy is this: the Orthodox Church, in my opinion and that of many others, has kept true to its apostolic roots more so than any other church. This is key to both ecumenism and to the salvation of our souls, as the mother Church becomes the heartland for truth, the "pillar of fire".

I've noticed in my scourging of the web for tracts against other religions (may God have mercy upon me for this false pride I am beginning to throw off!) , that the Catholic Church has a large amount of such tracts and though many of them are useful for the searching soul, what they say about Orthodoxy is deplorable. It's another round of "who is more wrong", and the usual lack of ecclesial knowledge with the line after line of "the Orthodox church does not recognize the superiority and the supremacy of the see of Rome, so it is anathema and to be damned....etc.". Admittedly, that is the worst of the worst, though the general idea resounds throughout. The authors do not even dare speak a word of the lack of union of the Roman pontiff with THE OTHER FOUR PATRIARCHS......once again like they don't even exist.

What I have just said is an example of the false pride I have begun to develope, that which must be smashed for me to truly fulfill the calling the Lord has sent me upon.

In regard to what people have said about age and honouring my parents, I agree wholeheartedly, but there is a small piece of missing information. As I have said, I have reached the age of reason and I am hardly a rebellious young teenager popularised by most movies targeted for people my age. When I decided to return to the Church about a year ago, the Roman Catholic Church, my parents were overjoyed and when I asked to start going to Church every sunday, they began returning to church with me. After a short amount of time, and after learning about the eastern Churches, I asked to become a permanent parishioner at the local Byzantine Catholic church. I did so, and then my parents ceased to come to Church with me, and they also ceased to go to the Roman Church. Needless to say, I continuously attempted to get them to come to Church, Roman or Byzantine, and yet they refused. As you may be able to tell, my home was never very spiritual, but the Lord called me to be someone to try and bring the familiy back to the Church. In fact, my mother admits that I have taught her very much about history and spirituality, that which she did not know before. Either my efforts were in vain, or they have yet to be fulfilled in some other way, but I know now that since the age of reason I've been avoiding my home, the Orthodox Church.

Thank you all,
Glory to Jesus Christ!

-Justin, archsinner