www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Converting to Orthododoxy

Justin:

You are wise beyond your years my Chrisian brother. I will pay for you as you make your journey. Study and pray and let the Holy Spirit lead you.
If he does lead you into the Orthodox Catholic faith , then he will have given us another jewel.

OrthoMan

Thank you, Orthoman for your compliments, my prayers are with you and all the others who have been making this easier than it has been with my parents.

In respect with the advice of the administrator and those who have agreed with him, I feel like "now is the time". Not to sound like I want to just jump in head first, I just think that what has happened is this: I've been walking, no, crawling ever so slowly since I first became called to religion, and every new interest and study has brought me more and more to a position of standing up to praise the divine trinity. From skepticism, to Islam, to Liberal Protestantism, to Roman Catholicism, to Eastern Catholicism and now Orthodox, I feel like I have found the truth. How do I know this is different? Mere process of elimination? No. I know this because never, EVER, have things been so clear. It's as though a weight has been lifted, like I can finally worship God in the orthodox manner.

And though I would like ever so much to stay in custom with the religion of my parents, I know that I would be living a life contrary to what God wants me to do. I still will always honour my parents as being the head of my household and the earthly creators of my being, I cannot follow them in their beliefs, as I have seen enough and only begun to reach out to God to know that Orthodoxy alone will be my destination, no, the whole of humanity's destination (that is, the Orthodox/Catholic Church), in due time.

Also in regards to the way this is deceptively a "sudden thing", I should point out the fact that my quest has been long and dangerous spiritualy in my eyes, and that there is an ancient saying of the east which I would like to proclaim:

"In the east, we embrace God, then talk about him"

Thank you all,
Glory to Jesus Christ!

-Justin

Glory To Jesus Christ!

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Justin-if there is one thing that I hear in you it is young, it is enthusiam, is hopeful but in truth it is also extremely vain of you. Especially to think it so important to write about it on a BYZANTINE CATHOLIC FORUM.

First of all you are a minor, you have to respect the will of your parents, if not for only 2 more years. Second for those of you who are guests here who are Orthodox, to be encouraging this young man is unfair and amounts to the one thing I hear over and over again decried by the ROC: PROSLYTISM. By encouraging him and prodding him in this direction, you are acting as active agents for proslytizing a Ukrainian Catholic into Orthodoxy. You act in the same dishonest character that you accuse the Roman Church of and thereby are no better. I no longer want to hear you rants about prostyletism any longer for you do the same thing by your "accolades" and "atta boys" to Justin. And to do this to a child?

Justin your decision, if you go to any honest, integral, Orthodox priest, he is going to tell you to stay within your properly baptized Church.
This is the formal decisions of our churches concerning the faithful of our churches.

Orthodoxy can be found in your Ukrainian Cathlolic Church, especially in South Ontario, ie Saint Elias. So go there. Our church, her martyrs and saints, whether recognized by Rome or not, did not keep the faith through much harder circumstances so that people like yourself would leave because things are not perfect. Life is not perfect my young brother.

Our Church needs young men like you to stay in the Church and fight for it. We need you to be a priest in our church. That is the more noble and harder cross to bear. Orthodoxy is the easy way out. Myself, I often want to convert to Orthodoxy, but if I leave, if everyone leaves than how are we handling the golden talent Christ gives us to be accoutable for?

And if this decision has anything to do with events at WYD than I suggest that you immediatley go to your Spiritual Father and talk with him. You need guidance not deception.

NOTE: If anyone should feel the need to fix me, do so privately, via email and not publically on this forum. I have stated my positions publically for one reason: Justin: you decided to make this public and did so for reasons I believe deceptive. Public scandal deserves public admonition. I would recomend the Mystery of Confession first in your Ukrainian Catholic Church, before making any decisions.

As for the Orthodox guests, I would ask that you keep yourself out of the affairs of a minor and his parents, the affairs of another Church, and cease in your encouragement to convert him, aka "steal" him to Orthodoxy. That is Prosyletism. And such actions are uncanonical, according to your Church and mine.

In Christ,
ALity

Ality, I respect greatly that which you have said, though there are three points in particular I should try and express:
1. St. Elias Church is very far away from me, too far to go except maybe once a year. I have been there, and it is a landmark to the greatness of Orthodoxy at its finest in union with Rome. The local Church is great but I cannot seem to become a part of it due to distance or (I HIGHLY DOUBT) ethnicity. I don't think I am at home with most slavic cultures.
2. I understand your protestations about my posting this topic here, on a byzantine Catholic forum, but I think many will agree with me here when I say this is the single greatest eastern christian board on the entirety of the net. I have learned so much here and it is here that I felt it would be best to express my declaration of faith, amongst friends (mostly) and those who know best about these situations.
3. Thirdly, and finally, as my fingers are getting sleepy even, I have spoken far too much, so I will try to sum up here. I do not think my age should be immeadiatly frowned upon as a factor. I mean, I've read and prayed for so many hours, having this feeling that something was incomplete or wrong. Ever since I've agreed the invitation of the Lord to eastern Orthodoxy, it is as though all those feelings have passed. And I have studied enough and have done enough soul-searching to know this is not merely "an adolescent stage of enthusiasm", I do not have the same sentiments nor the same understanding as I did when I wrote "Catholic or Orthodox, I'm in distress", I have progressed far beyond that. Rather, this is the compilation of every serious thought I have ever had in my entire life. It's as though they all whisper "Orthodox" and yet I built a wall of pride and self-righteousness to try and ignore the idea. "That would be dishonouring my parents!" is a recurring theme, though, as I have explained before, I honour them in all things, though this is my salvation I am deeply concerned about. If the apostles did not follow Jesus because they had to honour their parents, as Jesus himself said, would we be living this faith? That being said, I retire to my bed now, peace be with all of you.

-Justin, sinner

p.s. Ality, please do not be upset with me, I hold no grudges towards anyone nor do I seek to convert for any childish reasons. I am VERY serious about this. Why, I'm thinking about how my relatives and fellow students would take it. Sure, it will affect my reliability, but I am certain that the good tree the Lord has deemed to be planted within me shall ultimately bear good fruit.

ALity, also, I restate, the way the Roman Church is now is not one of the reasons I seek to leave, rather, it is merely something that has pushed me into deeper study and attempts to defend the Catholic Church. And as well, your use of the words "minor" and proselytism is offensive to me, as though I do this for the way things happened at world youth day......you think that I am that naive? If anything, I love the pope even more and with greater joy because of the way he celebrated world youth day. The only proselytization that has been happening here is from myself, these people have only been lifting the burden of the cross I must bear now.

"the easy way out"?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?
bite your tongue!
If anything, this will be more difficult than trying to reform the Church in a legitimate way. The way my family will react, the way I have to leave the Ukrainian Church, and please, do not compare me with the Holy martyrs and Holy ones of the eastern Catholic Church, I am not worthy of such honour. And, I was never officially a fully fledged eastern Catholic.

Good night (morning)

Dear Friends,

It's time to share in the PARADE !!!!!!

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Excerpts from a post by OrthodoxyOrDeath

"I once heard someone say that if the Catholic Church had a parade, first you would see the pope, then the most Holy Theotokos, then you would see Jesus."

---------

These parades happen frequently, first the earthbound pastor speaking of Jesus, then the Theotokos - eternal sign and symbol of His human arrival, them the Lord Himself. And behind Jesus, would be the Father, to whom Jesus directed us when asked "how shall we pray?"

--------------------------

"Religion itself is part of the consumerist society now. Religion has become a commodity that we consume; . . . There is no room for faith, there is only a desire for a comforting affirmation of "self." Either God does it our way, or we shop around for a different "god." "

---------

A sad reality of the world we live in. But it seems that if we seek to preach the Gospel to all nations, we must find the means to get through to the people shopping in each of the little consumer spiritual boutiques that they are looking for answers in. Expecting them to comply with each and every canon of the Church and say each prayer exactly correctly immediately upon their entry into the parish would seem to guarantee that no one would try.

This whole thread seems a bit like looking for the "right version of God". Talk of "conversion" seems to say that up until now, one has believed in a false God, or a fake Jesus. I think that neither is a true explanation of what is happening here.

Justin seems very committed to Jesus Christ and if you believe that the Church is "One, Holy, Catholic, and Apostolic" because the Lord said He would build His (one) Church upon the (one) rock, then Justin is just moving to where he finds a better personal understanding of the same faith that he has had.

If you believe that Churches are divided by the turf-protecting stone-throwing of Hierarchs, and that this REALLY MEANS A WHOLE LOT, then I guess we have a conversion going on here.

Justin, I wish you well on your pilgrimage, and hope that you will be guided more by the Lord's desire to save all His people and His eternal mercy and less by the stone-throwing nit-picking canon lawyers, theologians, and heirarchs.

It seems to me that we should all be in the parade, all of us pointing the nonbelievers toward our Priests, they in turn pointing toward the Saints and the Church. The Church, (all together now) throughout the Earth, pointing via its human leadership toward the Holy Mother of God. She who shows us the way to Jesus, who in turn is the Way to our Father in heaven.


Have a Blessed Day !!!!

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

Dear Justin,

I am very moved by this whole dialogue. As a man who was raised as a very anit-Catholic Baptist, who in adult life converted to Catholicism and later moved on to Eastern Christianity, I can really appreciate your desire to know God better and move ever more closer to His truth and His Body.

I want to say that if many of the things stated in this forum by Eastern Catholics are true regarding the Church of Rome, I too would be becoming Eastern Orthodox (or in my case Oriental Orthodox) too. I myself don't see the great advantage of being "an Orthodox in communion with Rome" when, instead, I could be "an Orthodox in communion with Orthodox."

I'm thirty-two years old. I've tried to read a lot over the last decade that I've been studying these issues. I've seen profound truths on both sides defending their positions adequately. In truth, I don't ever believe that I will find that one side is all wrong and the other side is all right. I think both have great truth and both have minor error. For me, it is a matter of which can I discern to be more correct.

Being a very fallible human individual, I'm the first to admit that my decision ultimately could be the one less correct. But I have to be true to my conscience and try to be open to God's truth as best I can understand it.

I think this is what you are attempting too. One thing I like about your attitude is your respect for whichever Church you decide that you must leave. This is something I share with you. Ultimately whichever Church I end up in, one of my heart's greatest desires will still remain the same. And that is to see Christ's Holy Body one day reunited as one Church as it was meant to be. This is something, whichever Church I remain in, I hope to work towards until the day I fall asleep in the Lord.

Whatever you do or decide, I urge you to stay constant in this same goal and never loose that gift of the Holy Spirit of Charity for your other seperated brothers and sisters in Christ!

May God speed you on your journey into His everlasting Light!

In that same Light,

Wm. Der-Ghazarian

Come, Holy Spirit!

Wm. Der-Ghazarian writes to Justin:

May God speed you on your journey into His everlasting Light!

I add my prayer to yours.

One of my favorite prayers is "Lead, Kindly Light" which expresses your own wish, I think, so beautifully (and both you and Justin may already be famliar with it):

Lead, Kindly Light, amid the encircling gloom -
Lead Thou me on!
The night is dark, and I am far from home -
Lead Thou me on!
Keep Thou my feet; I do not ask to see
The distant scene - one step enough for me.

I was not ever thus, nor pray'd that Thou
Shouldst lead me on.
I loved to choose and see my path, but now
Lead Thou me on!
I loved the garish day, and, spite of fears,
Pride ruled my will; remember not past years.

So long Thy power hath blest me, sure it still
Will lead me on,
O'er moor and fen, o'er crag and torrent, till
The night is gone;
And with the morn those angel faces smile
Which I have loved long since, and lost awhile-John Henry Newman

I have prayed this prayer many times over the years: especially "one step enough for me; Lead Thou me on!"

To Christ, the Light of the world, be all glory and honor forever!

[ 08-04-2002: Message edited by: Gerard Serafin ]

Dear Justin;

It's always good to read your posts on this board.

May God continue to bless and guide you on your journey!

Slava Isusu Christu!
Stefan-Ivan

Thank you all, from the very depths of my being, for your prayers and your helping hands. I do not understand why people still think I am doing this for external or "what makes me feel good" reasons, it is what God has called me to do. If I had the power to pick and the choose the religion I wanted, and if I were a psychopath, I'd be a ninja-priest with magical powers and eternal life.

But what about God? What about the truth? I would be making a false religion for only myself and there would be no answers, only false pride. God established religion (that of Christ) , not man, and that is what we must all know and respect. What I do seek, truly, is that which God has established on the Earth and in my heart, orthodoxy, catholicity, and the faith in Jesus Christ expressed to its fullest.

Otherwise, happy Sunday! Glory to God! glory Forever!

I visited St. Ignatius Orthodox Church and I tell you, never have I felt so "at home" in all my life. The way the english, greek and arabic combined in a way that I could understand still the form of the liturgy... the intense sense of traditionalism and mutual love and honour of God... the way the cantors' every word, even I could not understand it, echoed the ultimate truth... the very smell ofthe incense rising like our prayers before the awesome mystical altar of God... my friends, these are the ripe fruits of trradition, worship at its finest and love of God at its most intimate.

At the divine liturgy, I did not go for communion, for two reasons, really. One, I received communion in the Roman Catholic Church nearby this morning (something that I will continue until I am fully Orthodox), and two, I want to respect the holiness of the tradition and the sacraments of the Holy Orthodox church. Whatever I may have said before about the Antiochian Church being some type of "buffer" for me until I join greek Orthodoxy, I take that back. I think Antioch (the other see of Peter) is my destination, though prayer alone shall tell.

At the end of the divine liturgy (two hours long), I went forward to kiss the Holy Cross of blessing and to take a piece of Antidoron (a tradition I have seen only in Holy Theotokos Monastery), where I met up with a friend of mine from school. I thought he was Armenian Orthodox,
"no", he tells me, "I'm just armenian". Anyways, as I go forward to receive the antidoron, I was tugged on the shirt, by a lady who said that there was a man who wished to speak with me. He was a seminarian, she said, and I informed him that I was the man who made a phone call to the church about conversion. He told me I was to go forward and speak with one of the priests about this, so I waited until all the people were done with the antidoron, and I approached the priest.

When I was just about to say hello, a man came over, a very nice man in charge of the choir, and we shook hands and engaged in a discussion. I told him my story (or as I first reffered to it, my "case", lol :rolleyes: ) and he seemed to be overjoyed. I was then asked how my voice was, and after a few moments I was invited to join the choir next week, to see if I have "the right stuff", if you will. The man then happily led me into the santuary where the priests were de-robing, and I immeadiately found myself surrounded by clergy interested in hearing the story I had just explained. After explaining it again, there were all very happy and I was offered a pair of books that I will be reading next week when I think I may receive them.

It was time for me to leave Church, and as I was about to leave, my new-found friend told me, "Welcome Home"................indeed it is as they say:


There's no place like home.


-Justin, archsinner, servant of God

Remie,

You seem to be interested in the history of Sufis and the Balkans.

I hope you enjoy this document, though it is long.

www.alevibektasi.com/xabiva.htm [alevibektasi.com]

Abdur

[ 08-04-2002: Message edited by: traveler ]

"At the divine liturgy, I did not go for communion, for two reasons, really. One, I received communion in the Roman Catholic Church nearby this morning (something that I will continue until I am fully Orthodox), and two, I want to respect the holiness of the tradition and the sacraments of the Holy Orthodox church."

Justin --

Have you discussed this with your Orthodox priest? Generally speaking, during the catechumenate, one is not expected to receive any sacraments outside of the Orthodox Church ... this is an important issue to discuss with your priest.

Brendan

Hi Dustin --

"You can join the OCA or the Carpatho-Rusyn Orthodox dioceses by profession of faith, confession, and communion, if you wish, under normal circumstances."

I don't think that the OCA will receive cradle RCs through profession of faith and confession. Cradle BCs have a better chance of this, but I'm still not sure that this would apply in all dioceses of the OCA -- eg, Diocese of the West.

When we were received, we were treated differently. My wife and I were cradle RCs, and even though we had been Melkite for a while and were canonically Melkite at the time, we were received by chrism. Our son, who was initiated in the Melkite Church, did not receive chrism, but was simply received at the chalice. I think, therefore, that the practice differs depending on one's own ecclesiastical background (and not simply the place where one is coming from).

"The Antiochians and Greeks will normally chrismate. Since you are Catholic, this is not exactly considered the same thing as a "rechrismation". The prayers are different, etc. Talk to several different Orthodox priests, first."

Yes, the prayers are the same as those said over an Orthodox "apostate" who returns to the Church (ie, after they receive sacraments outside the Orthodox Church, or are married outside the Orthodox Church) -- so it's neither a "re-chrismation" for them or for the person received that way. In both cases, it is an act of reconciliation with the Church. There are different opinions on this (one AA priest quipped to me once "well, that's the first time I've heard of a non-chrismation chrismation" ... but I've never heard any of these issue a credible perspective on the difference between the prayers used at at initiation chrismation and a reconciliation chrismation.

Brendan

I don't think that catholic servant has broken any of the byzcath forum laws, although I think this post should be in East-West.

"I don't think that the OCA will receive cradle RCs through profession of faith and confession. Cradle BCs have a better chance of this, but I'm still not sure that this would apply in all dioceses of the OCA -- eg, Diocese of the West."

I'm not sure, maybe it depends on the country and on what you define as "craddle" Roman Catholic.
I wouldn't say that every baptized Roman Catholic is a cradle Roman Catholic since in my country the vast majority of the population has been baptized in Roman Parishes but doesn't practice (only in marriages, baptizes, and fests).
Even the census has one category for roman catholics, non-religious and atheists together.

About the sacraments, correct me if I'm wrong but before 1989 the orthodox and catholic churches in the Soviet Union were allowed to give the sacraments to both faithful, but after the Soviet collapse there was no reason for mantaining that practice.

Some churches have certain levels of intercommunion (melkite-antiochian, for example), in Romania the Greek catholic Metropolitan has participated in the Liturgy with Patriarch Teoctist, but the curious thing is that at the moment of the communion both faithful get separated and go with their priests (the same patern was repeated during the Pope's Liturgy in Bucharest). In the fields were priests are scarce, the famillies of the Orthodox priests are allowed to confess with Greek Catholic priests.