www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology "Universal indult" to replace "Ecclesia Dei?"

Michael_Thoma:

On this forum awhile back there were pictures posted of this Liturgy being served in a seminary somwhere in the Czech Republic or Slovakia and it appeared that all in attendance were not only receiving in the hand but were also drinking directly fromt he Chalice.

Garrett:

Missed your election to the Chair of St. Peter. Since the Holy See granted this practice the necessary permission more than 20 years ago, it would seem that your statement places you at odds with the Church you recently joined as a convert. So where does that leave you.

As a Roman Catholic and a moderator here, I take personal offense at this statement and demand that you make an apology to the members of this board for this nasty attack on an approved practice of my particular Church.

AthanasiusOblSB:

The real scandal is that there is not an ongoing catechesis about the Eucharist and Who we have here. The real scandal is the encouragement of a relaxed attitude that all too often slips into indifferent disrespect--something people are not really aware of. The real scandal is that people have been encouraged to approach without examination as the Apostle Paul tells us we MUST do. The real scandal is that the clergy are afraid to speak up and many have been trained to "let things alone; don't rile the laity." The real scandal is that people are encouraged to be Extraordinary Ministers because it is "something nice to do" rather than finding people serious about the Faith and what it means, as well as having the backbone to defend the Mysteries that so many have died defending.

(Boy, what'd he have for lunch today, making him so cranky? )

In Christ,

BOB

I think we're moving far off the original topic here. The "universal indult" has been rumored for some time and never seems to get promulgated. As far as specific communion practices, they are not necessarily related to this topic.

As far as the Latin Church is concerned, the permission for receiving in the hand is already well established and would be very difficult to withdraw. Likewise receiving on the tongue is not necessarily connected to the TLM and receiving in the hand cannot be denied to someone who goes to a TLM and extends the hand, according to my sources.

In Christ,

BOB

Not to mention people walking away from a Mass with the Eucharist and then selling it on EBay or using it for desecration in a "Black Mass".

The Byzantine rite provides an inherent safety device from this perspective. The nature of the consecrated species would not allow for this.

Not necessarily, one could recieve the Eucharist, and on the way back to his pew or area, pretend to cough, send the Eucharist into his hand, and then transfer it into his pocket for later desecration. If a satanist wants the Eucharist he'll get it somehow. The evil one is crafty.

Bob,

You said "The real scandal is that there is not an ongoing catechesis about the Eucharist and Who we have here. The real scandal is the encouragement of a relaxed attitude that all too often slips into indifferent disrespect--something people are not really aware of. The real scandal is that people have been encouraged to approach without examination as the Apostle Paul tells us we MUST do. The real scandal is that the clergy are afraid to speak up and many have been trained to "let things alone; don't rile the laity." The real scandal is that people are encouraged to be Extraordinary Ministers because it is "something nice to do" rather than finding people serious about the Faith and what it means, as well as having the backbone to defend the Mysteries that so many have died defending."

You make good and important points. However, we differ on the root cause. This is okay, we will just have to agree to disagree.

If the Pope is going to broaden the use of the traditional Latin rite, he understands that people have different liturgical sensibilities. He also understands that these sensibilities have not dissipated in 40 years and are only growing stronger as the traditionalist movement gains momentum. One would also hope he understands that certain post-concilliar policies have been a major variable in the rise of the traditionalist phenomenon. While receiving the Eucharist in the hand, as well as from an extraordinary minister, may be permissible by law, there are millions of people who refuse to do either. Since receiving the Eucharist in the hand from an extraordinary minister is a pastoral provision, not a matter of faith, according to Dietrich Von Hildebrand, we are permitted to disagree with these policies even if they are approved by the Church. Among other things, this is why the Ecclesia Dei Commission exists.

I know all this talk about the Latin rite on an eastern discussion board irritates some members. However, in light of a new liturgy about to be promulgated, I can see some parallels.

Even though we disagree about the cause, Bob, I don't want to downplay the points you made. There is a lot of change needed in catechesis and the backbone needed to defend the mysteries

Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

The Divine Liturgy of Saint James, Brother of the Lord does indeed provide for rhe reception of the Holy Body of the Lord in the hand of the communicant, who then drinks the Precious Blood from the Chalice.

However, when the use of this taxis of the Divine Liturgy was revived in the Slav Churches - by the Russian Orthodox Church Outside of Russia in the late nineteen-thirties - the hierarchy ruled that, although this method of receiving Holy Communion is both Orthodox and beautiful, it would not be appropriate in our times, and therefore prescribed the use of the Communion Spoon, as at the Divine Liturgy of Saint Basil, and the Divine Liturgy of Saint John Chrysostom. So far as I am aware, that remains the practice of the Russian Church (where the Divine Liturgy of Saint James is offered at least once a year, at Jordanville).

Others are better placed than I am to report on how this is done in the Churches originating in Greece and the Middle East.

In any event, it is one thing to retain an ancient practice in its own context; it is something else again to reintroduce that practice quite outside of its own context. The context in which "Communion in the hand" was imposed in the Roman tradition recently is downright scandalous.

Fr. Serge

If the Catholic Church would quite 'updating' things and just plow the traditional course, like our Orthodox brethren, in the first place then there would be no need to constantly backpeddle. When you try to put a box around and define every aspect of the faith, you will always need to go back and start poking holes in the box to correct your mistakes. Yes the Catholic Church makes mistakes, even in Papal decrees and Ecumenical Councils.

I remember when Communion in the hand began, but cannot remember the Cardinal who started it. (Daneels? of the Netherlands) If memory serves, this started in the Netherlands without the permission of Rome. Pope Paul VI was said to be against the practice, but didn't want to discipline a Cardinal nor to appear to be contrary to what many thought the Vatican Council recently completed was about: allowing more flexibility at the local level.

So an abuse became enshrined in practice and we have what we have today.

In Christ,

BOB

Fr. Serge, barekmor,

I have never seen communion given to the hand of the recipient in either the Indian nor Syriac Churches who celebrated the Holy Qurbono of St. James regularly. This is not to say it doesn't occur, just that I have never seen it.

I think a new thread "Communion Practices, East & West" could be explored...after all it is the center of our worship and spiritual life.

james

In one of his lectures to the newly baptized, St. Cyril of Jerusalem instructs them to receive the body of the Lord in the palm of the right hand. He states, "In approaching therefore, come not with thy wrists extended, or thy fingers spread; but make thy left hand a throne for the right, as for that which is to receive a King. And having hollowed thy palm, receive the Body of Christ, saying over it, 'Amen.'" Given the honor in which both the Catholic and Orthodox hold St. Cyril, I would be extremely reluctant to condemn as "shameful and sacrilegious" a practice he taught.

Just a quick response to this...


"St. Cyril of Jerusalem instructs them to receive the body of the Lord in the palm of the right hand. He states, "In approaching therefore, come not with thy wrists extended, or thy fingers spread; but make thy left hand a throne for the right, as for that which is to receive a King. And having hollowed thy palm, receive the Body of Christ, saying over it, 'Amen.'"

My observations at mass indicate the majority of the laity currently receive in the left hand...

james

here is a interesting document...there was a vote, please note the yes/no counts


http://www.ewtn.com/library/CURIA/CDWMEMOR.HTM

From the USCCB site;

Those who receive Communion may receive either in the hand or on the tongue, and the decision should be that of the individual receiving, not of the person distributing Communion. If Communion is received in the hand, the hands should first of all be clean. If one is right handed the left hand should rest upon the right. The host will then be laid in the palm of the left hand and then taken by the right hand to the mouth. If one is left-handed this is reversed. It is not appropriate to reach out with the fingers and take the host from the person distributing.

James:
My point in quoting St. Cyril of Jerusalem was in response to the claim in an earlier post that to receive the body of Christ in one's hand is "shameful and sacrilegious." St. Cyril's text shows that reception in one's hand has a very ancient history and because of the esteem in which both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches hold St. Cyril, it seems to me that it is not such a good idea to condemn this practice. I wasn't trying create a debate as to whether one should receive in the right hand or the left hand. My guess (and that's really all that it is) is that most Roman Catholics receive in the left hand and then place the body of Christ in their mouths using their right hands because an overwhelming majority of the population is right-handed.

I just wanted to provide info...like I posted before this subject needs its own thread...it has drifted far from the original topic

PAX
james

Although unnamed, one of the obvious targets of the Pope's impending issuance of an indult "universalizing" the celebration of the TLM is the reconciliation of the SSPX with the Catholic Church.

It seems the SSPX has welcomed the news and its leader, Bishop Fellay, is set to reciprocate the sincere gesture of Pope Benedict XVI?

The SSPX will request additionally that the Pope lift the excommunication of the 4 bishops consecrated by the late Abp. Lefebvre without Rome's approval, including Bishop Fellay himself.

The traditionalist group apparently will drop its other demands while continuing to work within the framework of the Catholic Church for a redress of their grievances.

Two related stories:

Catholic World News [cwnews.com]

Reuters [today.reuters.co.uk]

Amado