www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Latin Rite, Facing East re: Liturgy of the Eucharist

ByzanTN,
I agree with everything you say, in your latest post and in previous posts.

N.B. That the Mass is primarily a sacrifice was declared at the Council of Trent to be a Dogma of the Faith. It is very true that the Mass is secondarily a meal, but to emphasize the latter in preference to the former "smacks of heresy" (as the old theologians would say).

Dear Friends,

The indult for the pre Vatican II Mass is the right of every Catholic. I also worship with reverence in the Byzantine Church facing East.

In the Roman Church, when all books are read and done, I find the liturgical orientation answer in St Peter's Basilica, celebrant facing East, and the people facing the celebrant. I trust that our popes know how to offer the holy sacrifice of the Mass.

Peace and grace to you in Christ Jesus.

Paul

In the original St. Peter's the priest AND the people faced east. The people stood on the sides, not directly in front of the altar. The altar in the new building seems awkwardly located because it could not be moved from it's original location when the new building was built.

Just a little thank you to those who edumucated me

Christos Voskres!

Hi,

Ah, we are making progress.

Would you agree that a priest "facing the people" from "behind" the altar, as it is commonly done in the Latin Church is actually facing the altar?

Would you agree that such a priest is facing the altar just as every bit as much as a Byzantine priest "facing away from the people" in front of the altar, as it is commonly done?

If in both traditions the priest is actually facing the altar, and if this is what is important, then what is your problem with this aspect of the Latin Mass?

Finally, I wouldn't dismiss the "Real Presence" of Christ in the People so easily.

According to Matthew 25, our acknowledgement of THAT Real Presence is, actually, bottom line, the only one that matters. Christ doesn't say "whatever you did to them, it is *like* you did it to me... whatever you failed to do for them, it is *like* you failed to do it for me". He said "whatever you did to them, you did it to me... whatever you failed to do for them, you failed to do it for me". See the difference?

In my book, these words are just as strong as "this is my Body... this is the cup of my Blood" or "I am the Bread of Life".

According to St. John Chrysostom, acknowledging Christ in the Eucharist without acknowledging Him in the brethren is false, pointless and senseless.

Shalom,
Memo

I understand the comment. Was this on another thread? Did someone recount how an Orthodox priest responded to the question of the need to recapture reverence in the RC Church? The Orthodox priest answered, "Turn the priest around during mass." I agree.

When Father had 1/2 of the pews removed he commented in a sermon that we "aren't here to worship our butts." I agree with that as well.

DanL

I think I'll throw a wee spanner in the works here

Many moons ago I was silly enough to be doing what was then called Higher RE [ usually sat by 16/17yr olds in their last year at School] - just to improve my knowledge of things. As part of this course I had to produce a short dissertation - and mug decided to do it on the changes that had become necessary, in some eyes , due to the results of Vatican II on the Liturgy.

Now sadly this was before my computer days so I no longer have my script - BUT I do remember doing much reading and a lot of it was on the position of the Priest at the Altar and where in the Church the Altar should be placed. Yes there were many arguments then for ' re-ordering' Churches , and this practice still continues .

What struck me most forcibly then was that the Priest was the Shepherd of his flock and should therefore lead like a shepherd - and this included the Liturgy too .

OK no objections there I hear you say BUT from my own observations

In the UK you see the shepherds leading from behind their flock [ the dogs are up front] and the shepherd 'shoos' them along

In Spain you will see the shepherd leading from the front of his flock - his back to them This I saw in a most spectacular fashion when one day in Salmanca all the traffic came to a halt - not a member of Police , Guarda Civil or anyone present , as a shepherd led his flock of sheep down the wonderful steps by the Aqueduct , and believe you me that flock must have been hundreds strong , as it took 30 mins for the flock to pass - and I saw only 1 shepherd and 1 dog - the dog was walking by his master.

NOW which way is the correct way ?

Can anyone tell me how American shepherds lead their flock ? , or French , German etc etc.

Anhelyna - soon to be heading for Leeds

I stand corrected. You are right. I was thinking of the instruction Inter Oecumenici, prepared by the Consilium for the carrying out of the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy and issued on September 26, 1964.

I disagree. I think it highly desireable. Vernacular is never going to be entirely absent from the Roman rite at this point, so if we are going to have it, we should have a faithful and decent translation, not a poor one done by the previous ICEL which has theological poverty and lacks verticality by its many omissions or alternative translations.

In this case, it is a both-and issue. This is all part of the reform of the reform. Restore the wider use of Latin (particularly for the Ordinary of the Mass), and also work for a better translation of the vernacular parts of the Mass.

Anhelyna,

I like our Shepherd, who like Christ, faced the Father head on as we must all do. He stands in front and takes the brunt of divine mercy first. That is what a shepherd does. Shepherds don't herd cattle. They lead sheep.

Dan Lauffer

If I am not mistaken, although the general instuctions for the RCC Mass do permit the priest to celebrate either "ad orientam" or "versus populum," some RC bishops have directed their priests that they may only celebrate "versus populum."

Martin

The St Peter's Basilica in Rome orientaion for Mass is my story and I'm sticking to it. For the Roman Church, with allowance for the 1962 Mass.

I don't want the Byzantine Church to change it's liturgy one iota, but consider this for Latins:

The priests celebrates the Eucharist "in persona Christi." Therefore when the people face the priest we face Christ, the resurection and the life.

Paul
amateur liturgist
I'd rather worship then talk about it.

Okay, first a general comment. This is a Byzantine forum and discussion of the liturgical praxis of the Latin Church may be interesting but unless it has some bearing on the Byzantine Church really has no place on this forum. I'm not going to close the topic, but I suggest that this be tabled or moved to some other forum that would be more appropriate.

As for shepherds -- I'm qualified to answer that since I am a shepherd. In the United States the shepherd is wherever he or she needs to be for the situation. I generally lead and let my dog bring up the rear unless the danger to the flock and the dog is such that I need to be in the back. Then, I move to the back and the dog goes to the front to control the stock's movement. Sometimes, however, I'll be in the middle with the dog on the other side moving back and forth from front to back keeping the stock bunched up -- usually when we're crossing a bridge or in some narrow area where the danger is to the sides.

Fr. Deacon Edward

My brothers and sisters,

I must say that I did not think that this question would generate many thoughts.

I will use one quote that echoes in my mind & heart often and was the base for the question, " Just as the natural sun arises over the earth and dissipates the darkness, so too the spiritual sun, Jesus Christ, has come to dispel the darkness of error and sin. In the Old Testament He is referred to as the rising light(Isa.9:1)and in St. John's Gospel He is declared to be the Light of the world (John 9:5)".

Sorry my brethern, if I have offended anyone or caused bad feelings.

May the Lord's blessings and peace be on all,

james

Father Deacon Edward,
This discussion is perfectly relevant for this forum. The original question was asking for an Eastern perspective on which way the priest should face during Mass. We have been comparing the Eastern and Western approaches all along.
It has become evident to everyone that many in the East are very keen on "facing East", and we have been discussing whether this is justifiable or not.
It is only within this context that we are discussing the change of practice in the West. And the West is being critiqued or defended on the basis of the common tradition of both the East and the West.
Again, it has become the understading here that the common tradition of the East AND the West is to face East. And it has been shown that this practice has been largely abandoned by both.
The question lingering is whether the priest should face away from the people in both East and West.

I for one have wholeheartedly agreed that both the East and West should face East. But I don't think we have resolved whether the priest should face the people or not (regardless of East or West).

James,
I don't think there is any bad feelings here. At least I don't have any. In fact I am really glad you opened up the topic. We are having a lively discussion, and though some have expressed great surpise that the priest's posture is even a question at all, I think we have been journeying toward an agreement on the issue, and have been learning alot about the Catholic Faith along the way.