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One thing I note in this thread is the assumption that there is necessarily a Artophorion (Tabernacle) at or near the Holy Table (Altar). In any rite, the Holy Gifts are only kept where there is a need to have Them ready for Communion of the sick or absent, or for Communion apart from a full Liturgy, e.g., a Presanctified Mass.
Therefore, in places where there are many altars proximate to each other, whether in the same church building, or in scattered chapels (such as is common at monasteries, for example), only one Altar has a Tabernacle, so the Liturgy often happens in the absence of the Holy Gifts. I don't know about other rites, but in the Byzantine Rite, the Holy Table itself is reverenced, and the Holy Liturgy and other services are conducted the same whether or not the Holy Gifts are present; the fact that the clergy face east most of the time has nothing to do with facing the Holy Gifts.
Also, the usual architecture of Byzantine (among other) churches has an apse at the east end which serves a pragmatic, acoustical purpose, because the priest or deacon directing his voice into the apse will cause the voice to be echoed and dispersed throughout the building.
Wishing all to be deemed worthy of beholding our Saviour's Passion and Glorious Resurrection, C prazdnikom! Kali Anastasi! Photius, Reader and sinner
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Brother Photius,
It just dawned in my poor un-enlighten mind, I should have simply asked why Eastern Catholics/Orthodox perform their Liturgies and prayer towards the East !
Could have avoided the dreaded RC stamp.
Boy am I dense :rolleyes:
james
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Dear Jakub, In case that was not a rhetorical question: Because rising (same word as "east" in Greek), and the sun also, are icons of Christ; and, Apostolic Tradition teaches us that when Christ comes again in glory, He will come from the east.
With the Feast! Photius
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In truth my brother in Christ Photius, I should have known better and re-phrased the query, but I at times do not have the patience for word & mind games.
May the Lord's blessing and peace be on you,
james
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My brethern in Christ, I have been informed by a source that my un-settled problem is addressed in the following link with our esteemed Administrator's & Moderator's permission: The Altar and direction of Liturgical Prayer, by then Joseph Cardinal Ratzinger, now H.H.Pope Benedict XVI. http://www.adoremus.org/0500-Ratzinger.html It has mention of the Byzantine Rite also. Thank you all for your input, and may the Lord's blessings and peace be on all. I am feeling a little better ....now. james
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Dear Photius, Thank-you for your post. I was actually hoping someone from the East would address this issue.
I am unsure of the emphasis the East places on adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. But in the West, the Sacred Eucharist in the Tabernacle is not only reserved for the sick or absent. It is continually reserved in the Tabernacle for adoration, and is expected to be frequently visited outside of the Liturgy. (That is not to say that it is not reserved there for the sick or absent because it is).
But a problem arises in the East when churches are not built properly. If they are built to face West for instance, for what reason does the priest continue to face away from the congregation? Is the acoustical purposes of the apse significant enough? Should the priest then pray toward the congregation and East? Or rather, should he continue to face the Sanctuary where the Artophorion rests? I have indicated that this last option is the solution, because of the sacrality of the Sanctuary. And this sacrality is due in part to the Holy Gifts, that is the very Christ Himself residing there.
Pax Christi, Obediens
Usque
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James, Thank you for posting the link. I am glad you are feeling a bit better. And thank you also for opening this thread. I have learned much from it.
Pax Christi, Obediens
Usque
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I may just be unlearned, but I thought the Eastern Rites weren't into the adoration of the Blessed Sacrament. Looking forward to being corrected. Christos Voskres!
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Originally posted by Chotkimeister: I may just be unlearned, but I thought the Eastern Rites weren't into the adoration of the Blessed Sacrament.
Looking forward to being corrected.
Christos Voskres! Nope - no correction - ECs are not really into 'such things' - they leave it for the RCs but do understand and many of them will often pay a "wee visit" and rest in peace in the Presence. Anhelyna - the lopsided one
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As far as the different modes of Christ's real presence are concerned, Pope Paul VI said the following: All of us realize that there is more than one way in which Christ is present in His Church. We want to go into this very joyful subject, which the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy presented briefly, at somewhat greater length. Christ is present in His Church when she prays, since He is the one who "prays for us and prays in us and to whom we pray: He prays for us as our priest, He prays in us as our head, He is prayed to by us as our God"; and He is the one who has promised, "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, I am there in the midst of them." He is present in the Church as she performs her works of mercy, not just because whatever good we do to one of His least brethren we do to Christ Himself, but also because Christ is the one who performs these works through the Church and who continually helps men with His divine love. He is present in the Church as she moves along on her pilgrimage with a longing to reach the portals of eternal life, for He is the one who dwells in our hearts through faith, and who instills charity in them through the Holy Spirit whom He gives to us.
In still another very genuine way, He is present in the Church as she preaches, since the Gospel which she proclaims is the word of God, and it is only in the name of Christ, the Incarnate Word of God, and by His authority and with His help that it is preached, so that there might be "one flock resting secure in one shepherd."
He is present in His Church as she rules and governs the People of God, since her sacred power comes from Christ and since Christ, the "Shepherd of Shepherds," is present in the bishops who exercise that power, in keeping with the promise He made to the Apostles.
Moreover, Christ is present in His Church in a still more sublime manner as she offers the Sacrifice of the Mass in His name; He is present in her as she administers the sacraments. On the matter of Christ's presence in the offering of the Sacrifice of the Mass, We would like very much to call what St. John Chrysostom, overcome with awe, had to say in such accurate and eloquent words: "I wish to add something that is clearly awe-inspiring, but do not be surprised or upset. What is this? It is the same offering, no matter who offers it, be it Peter or Paul. It is the same one that Christ gave to His disciples and the same one that priests now perform: the latter is in no way inferior to the former, for it is not men who sanctify the latter, but He who sanctified the former. For just as the words which God spoke are the same as those that the priest now pronounces, so too the offering is the same." No one is unaware that the sacraments are the actions of Christ who administers them through men. And so the sacraments are holy in themselves and they pour grace into the soul by the power of Christ, when they touch the body. The Highest Kind of Presence.
These various ways in which Christ is present fill the mind with astonishment and offer the Church a mystery for her contemplation. But there is another way in which Christ is present in His Church, a way that surpasses all the others. It is His presence in the Sacrament of the Eucharist, which is, for this reason, "a more consoling source of devotion, a lovelier object of contemplation and holier in what it contains" than all the other sacraments; for it contains Christ Himself and it is "a kind of consummation of the spiritual life, and in a sense the goal of all the sacraments."
This presence is called "real" not to exclude the idea that the others are "real" too, but rather to indicate presence par excellence, because it is substantial and through it Christ becomes present whole and entire, God and man. And so it would be wrong for anyone to try to explain this manner of presence by dreaming up a so-called "pneumatic" nature of the glorious body of Christ that would be present everywhere; or for anyone to limit it to symbolism, as if this most sacred Sacrament were to consist in nothing more than an efficacious sign "of the spiritual presence of Christ and of His intimate union with the faithful, the members of His Mystical Body." (Mysterium Fidei, nos. 35-39) Clearly, the real presence of Christ in the consecrated elements is unique, because a Catholic can offer the worship of adoration ( latria) to the Eucharistic species, but he cannot offer that kind of worship to the members of the congregation, or to the sacred scriptures, or to the priest who acts in the person of Christ the Head and Shepherd. The Eucharistic species are the supreme manifestation of God upon earth, for "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord; God the Lord has revealed Himself to us."
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Usque, I'm feeling better because I found the document... but I must confess it was "under my nose" all the time, we tend to stress quickly when arriving at a "certain" age, and was anxious to post it. Anhelyna, you may lean, but I fall often (what the youngsters call "extreme leaning")  and it may be to the east or west, depending on my spiritual wind at that particular moment :rolleyes: . james
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As far as the different modes of Christ's real presence are concerned, Pope Paul VI said the following:
quote: -------------------------------------------------------------------------------- All of us realize that there is more than one way in which Christ is present in His Church. We want to go into this very joyful subject, which the Constitution on the Sacred Liturgy presented briefly, at somewhat greater length. Christ is present in His Church when she prays, since He is the one who "prays for us and prays in us and to whom we pray: He prays for us as our priest, He prays in us as our head, He is prayed to by us as our God"; and He is the one who has promised, "Where two or three are gathered together in my name, I am there in the midst of them." He is present in the Church as she performs her works of mercy, not just because whatever good we do to one of His least brethren we do to Christ Himself, but also because Christ is the one who performs these works through the Church and who continually helps men with His divine love. He is present in the Church as she moves along on her pilgrimage with a longing to reach the portals of eternal life, for He is the one who dwells in our hearts through faith, and who instills charity in them through the Holy Spirit whom He gives to us.
In still another very genuine way, He is present in the Church as she preaches, since the Gospel which she proclaims is the word of God, and it is only in the name of Christ, the Incarnate Word of God, and by His authority and with His help that it is preached, so that there might be "one flock resting secure in one shepherd."
He is present in His Church as she rules and governs the People of God, since her sacred power comes from Christ and since Christ, the "Shepherd of Shepherds," is present in the bishops who exercise that power, in keeping with the promise He made to the Apostles.
Moreover, Christ is present in His Church in a still more sublime manner as she offers the Sacrifice of the Mass in His name; He is present in her as she administers the sacraments. On the matter of Christ's presence in the offering of the Sacrifice of the Mass, We would like very much to call what St. John Chrysostom, overcome with awe, had to say in such accurate and eloquent words: "I wish to add something that is clearly awe-inspiring, but do not be surprised or upset. What is this? It is the same offering, no matter who offers it, be it Peter or Paul. It is the same one that Christ gave to His disciples and the same one that priests now perform: the latter is in no way inferior to the former, for it is not men who sanctify the latter, but He who sanctified the former. For just as the words which God spoke are the same as those that the priest now pronounces, so too the offering is the same." No one is unaware that the sacraments are the actions of Christ who administers them through men. And so the sacraments are holy in themselves and they pour grace into the soul by the power of Christ, when they touch the body. The Highest Kind of Presence.
These various ways in which Christ is present fill the mind with astonishment and offer the Church a mystery for her contemplation. But there is another way in which Christ is present in His Church, a way that surpasses all the others. It is His presence in the Sacrament of the Eucharist, which is, for this reason, "a more consoling source of devotion, a lovelier object of contemplation and holier in what it contains" than all the other sacraments; for it contains Christ Himself and it is "a kind of consummation of the spiritual life, and in a sense the goal of all the sacraments."
This presence is called "real" not to exclude the idea that the others are "real" too, but rather to indicate presence par excellence, because it is substantial and through it Christ becomes present whole and entire, God and man. And so it would be wrong for anyone to try to explain this manner of presence by dreaming up a so-called "pneumatic" nature of the glorious body of Christ that would be present everywhere; or for anyone to limit it to symbolism, as if this most sacred Sacrament were to consist in nothing more than an efficacious sign "of the spiritual presence of Christ and of His intimate union with the faithful, the members of His Mystical Body." (Mysterium Fidei, nos. 35-39) --------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Clearly, the real presence of Christ in the consecrated elements is unique, because a Catholic can offer the worship of adoration (latria) to the Eucharistic species, but he cannot offer that kind of worship to the members of the congregation, or to the sacred scriptures, or to the priest who acts in the person of Christ the Head and Shepherd. The Eucharistic species are the supreme manifestation of God upon earth, for "Blessed is He who comes in the name of the Lord; God the Lord has revealed Himself to us." Loved ya on Phatmass, love you here too. God Bless Thanks for re-iterating the authentic spirit of Vatican II as was borne witness to especially--now there's a word I know--  in Sancrosantum Concilium 7 and 10
"We love, because he first loved us"--1 John 4:19
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James One of these days your leaning will become apparent to you  and then it will become permanent . Trust me in that wee thing Anhelyna
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Trust me in that wee thing I love the way Scots talk Sorry Anhelyna cant help it I'm a Londoner by birth an Oxonian by trade accents speak louder than words 
"We love, because he first loved us"--1 John 4:19
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Anhelyna,
The good Lord only knows the time when I stabilize, I hope it's sooner then later !
I wish that my Welsh brother-in-law's daily quotes were postable ! He was a mariner for nearly 50 years, and we know that story, eh.
I'll get by with a little(wee) help from my friends !
james
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