www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Purgatory, what is it?

I am wondering if there was a misunderstanding? In my posts I did not state that the "lake of fire" was Purgatory but Hell, just as you state.

What I wrote is that Hades is Purgatory, also known as Sheol.

Then I asked if there is Heaven and Hell, two spiritual states, conditions or worlds (whichever is the most accurate), and there is Hades, wouldn't Hades be considered a third state?

And Hades is the Greek, Purgatory is based on the Latin purgatorio, and Sheol is the Hebrew; but all reference the same third state. Correct?

The bottom line is that any deviation from the two known facts about Purgator/Toll Houses/Forecourts is just extrapolation and isn't required for belief. Maybe souls do go to a "forecourt" of Heaven or Hell, as Alex stated. Maybe not. No one's forced to believe that. Maybe souls are purified by a cleansing and painful fire before entering Heaven, as Latin theology suggests. Maybe not. Dunno. No one's forced to believe that, either.

Logos Teen

some good references to study:
PURGATORY
1. A State After Death of Suffering and Forgiveness
2. Purification After Death By Fire
http://www.scripturecatholic.com/purgatory.html#purgatory-II

How to Explain Purgatory to Protestants
by James Akin
http://www.cin.org/users/james/files/how2purg.htm

Isn't Purgatory the place to which the Roman Catholics and the Orthodox consign the Uniates?
Incognitus

Brad, your confusion about the nature of the Forum is understandable; the quote at the bottom of every page reads that "the Byzantine Forum is an UNOFFICIAL website of the Byzantine Catholic Church". Unofficial or not, that still identifies the Forum with the Catholic Church. I shared your confusion when I first came here and it affected the tone of my posts. I have mentioned on another thread to the Administrator that this is confusing and he seemed amenable to changing it to clarify things, but has not as yet done so.
The Roman way of talking about the state of the dead can be a bit offputting, all that stuff about temporal punishments and such; it all seems unnecessarily legalistic. As I have mentioned when this came up before, reading St Catherine of Genoa's treatise "On Purgatory" gives one a much more beautiful way of approaching this Mystery, one that more emphasizes the soul's sanctification, what the East would call Theosis. For that matter the way that CS Lewis expressed the idea of purgatory, in "the Great Divorce" and elsewhere is very much more helpful than what most of us envision the Latin version of Purgatory, which entails really bad Western art and no doubt memories of the accounting firm style of counting indulgences many of us were taught in our youth [I was raised Roman Catholic].
And while I appreciate Garrett's irenic approach, I question whether the idea of purifying fire is really the same as the toll house doctrine, which seems much more attuned to fear of the demons of the air and one's own sinful guilt. One Russian author called it the "final triumph of Pelagianism".
The essentials, and possibly as much as we can know on this side is that the souls of most people need further purification, or sanctification, or conformity to the image of Christ, or whatever you want to call it, at death. Further, these souls can profit from our prayers. Anything beyond that reflects the culture and imaginations of those who speculate. The Orthodox often object to the "Western" idea of fire in this process, but some of the Eastern Fathers held that this fire is the fire of divine Love, experienced by the damned as painful, by the blessed as bliss, and by the souls in "purgatory" as both...

Brad,

Thanks for the clarification. Your earlier posts read (at least to me) as if you were not sure about whether the �lake of fire� was hell or purgatory.

I suppose one could consider Purgatory, Hades and Sheol to be the same place, but only in a very loose sense. The traditional understanding of Hades (= Sheol) is merely one of it being a state where the dead are (especially prior to the coming of Christ). I am not aware that the Church has ever described those in this state before the coming of Christ as being in a state of purification. The concept of Purgatory most definitely carries with it an idea of cleansing (purgation) of sin.

Genesis 42:38 - But Jacob replied: "My son shall not go down with you. Now that his full brother is dead, he is the only one left. If some disaster should befall him on the journey you must make, you would send my white head down to the nether world in grief."

Psalm 16:10 - For you will not abandon me to Sheol, nor let your faithful servant see the pit.

Psalm 138[139]:8 - If I ascend to the heavens, you are there; if I lie down in Sheol, you are there too.

Hosea 13:14 - Shall I deliver them from the power of the nether world? Shall I redeem them from death? Where are your plagues, O death! Where is your sting, O nether world! My eyes are closed to compassion.

Isaiah 14:9 - The nether world below is all astir preparing for your coming; It awakens the shades to greet you, all the leaders of the earth; It has the kings of all nations rise from their thrones.

Isaiah 14:13-15 - You said in your heart: "I will scale the heavens; Above the stars of God I will set up my throne; I will take my seat on the Mount of Assembly, in the recesses of the North. I will ascend above the tops of the clouds; I will be like the Most High!" Yet down to the nether world you go to the recesses of the pit!

Can the OT references be used to definitively support the idea that Purgatory is the same place as Hades (Sheol)? It does not appear so but perhaps others who are more familiar with Latin theology can comment. The NAB footnote for the Psalm 16:8 reference reads: �Nor let your faithful servant see the pit: Hebrew shahath means here the pit, a synonym for Sheol, the underworld. The Greek translation derives the word here and elsewhere from the verb shahath, "to be corrupt." On the basis of the Greek, Acts 2:25-32; 13:35-37 apply the verse to Christ's resurrection, "Nor will you suffer your holy one to see corruption."

In the New Testament we find:

Matthew 11:23 - And as for you, Capernaum: 'Will you be exalted to heaven? You will go down to the netherworld.'

Matthew 16:18 - And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my church, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

Luke 16:23 - The rich man also died and was buried, and from the netherworld, where he was in torment, he raised his eyes and saw Abraham far off and Lazarus at his side.

Acts 2:26-31 - Therefore my heart has been glad and my tongue has exulted; my flesh, too, will dwell in hope, because you will not abandon my soul to the netherworld, nor will you suffer your holy one to see corruption. You have made known to me the paths of life; you will fill me with joy in your presence.' My brothers, one can confidently say to you about the patriarch David that he died and was buried, and his tomb is in our midst to this day. But since he was a prophet and knew that God had sworn an oath to him that he would set one of his descendants upon his throne, he foresaw and spoke of the resurrection of the Messiah, that neither was he abandoned to the netherworld nor did his flesh see corruption.

Again, I�m not sure that one can equate the Purgatory with Hades. The Matthew 16:18 and Luke 16:23 references do not seem to refer to the state of Purgatory.

Admin

Herb,

When you direct Alex to his own articles, and describe them as "Excellent" (capitalized, no less), it just leads to all kinds of problems with his goal to be humble during Lent

Many years,

Neil

Neil,

That is to funny! Well at least he knows quality when he sees it!

Pani Rose

i believe in purgatory :-)

Hi,

When you are in a dark room, and suddenly you go out to a bright summy day, your eyes take a little time to adjust, and depending on how dark was the room, this adjustment might go from a little uncomfortable, to outright painful.

That is purgatory.

Shalom,
Memo.

This seems to be the best answer so far.

Dan L

OOPS!! Give me time to get used to the Forum, but I know that someplace in Scripture it says something to the effect "....he will be saved, though as by fire." Also, doesn't the Latin church teach that the suffering souls in Purgatory experience the pain of Hell's fires, but without the despair of the damned ?

What do I know, though being a convert.

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Sam

No, the "fires" of purgation are not the same as the fires of hell. There is no despair in purgatory, which is the essence of hell. St Catherine of Genoa says the soul in purgatory knows greater joy, and at the same time greater suffering than any on earth. The fires of purgatory are the presence of God, purifying the soul of all that is not godly, a painful but blessed experience, a process of theosis.

I had always been puzzled by the doctrine of purgatory, particularly by all the talk about fire and smoke and pain. It seemed like a peculiarly vengeful way for an all-good God to act. When the parents of a murder victim demanded the death of the murderer as revenge for their loss, it seemed like a natural human reaction to me, but scarcely Christian. How then could God be demanding vengeance for our sins when His name is Love? But when I began to realize that purgatory is not vengeance but purification and transformation, the whole doctrine seemed not only
acceptable but necessary. Sooner or later we have to be made divine if we are going to love as we are loved, ***if not in this life, then certainly
after death.*** Since most people choose to avoid the call to purifying transformation during this life, it seemed only logical that this call
would have to be faced later, since not sooner. The only alternative would be to remain untransformed forever, and that is hell!

What, then, if some souls (ex. the saints), drawn by grace, should choose to begin to live eternity now? It seemed to follow that this would first
mean living purgatory now, since we can only know and love God as he is (which is eternal life - Jn. 17:3) once we have become like him. Becoming
like him means, as the gospels make abundantly clear, dying to all in ourselves which is selfishness and sin. This process of transformation (this purgatory) is the central message of the first epistle of John. "God
is light; and there is no darkness in him" (1 Jn 1:15); we are darkness and sin (1:8, 10) and Jesus Christ alone, encountered in the community of fraternal love, is our healing; if we live this life in Christ fully, we shall be healed and transformed, until eventually "we shall be like him, because we shall see him as he really is" (3:2)

One Orthodox I knowsaid this: "Once in paradise, they will have a time of bliss but once they are put into the presence of God, any undealt
with sins will be purged from them by God's firey presence. That is the general Orthodox understanding, though these are not dogmas
as such, set down in council for the most part, but are what has generally been taught." This understanding is not utterly foreign to
the Western Church and this can be found in the writings of St. John of the Cross.

In Crossing the Threshold of Hope, Pope John Paul II related God's "living flame of Love" spoken of by St. John of the Cross with the doctrine of Purgatory: "The 'living flame of love,' of which St. John speaks, is above all a purifying fire. The mystical nights described by this great Doctor of the Church on the basis of his own
experience corresponds, in a certain sense, to Purgatory. God makes man pass through such an interior purgatory of his sensual and
spiritual nature in order to bring him into union with Himself. Here we do not find ourselves before a mere tribunal. We present ourselves
before the power of love itself. Before all else, it is Love that judges. God, who is Love, judges through love. It is love that demands purification, before man can be made ready for that union with God which is his ultimate vocation and destiny" which Revelation
21:27 states that "nothing impure can enter it."

The great 16th century mystical writer, St. John of the Cross, wrote often of the purgation of sins that we must undergo before we can be
fully open to the power of God's love.

One of John's works was titled The Living Flame of Love. In it, he writes, "When this flame shines on the soul, since its light is
excessively brilliant, it shines within the darknesses of the soul." (This I believe is that the souls are already in God's presence yet
they "feel" they are absent which is called pain of sense according to Teresa of Avila.) This is what Peter experienced when he witnessed
the boats overflowing with fish. The divine light of Jesus shone brightly and revealed the darkness in Peter's soul.

St. John went on to say, "it is impossible to perceive one's darknesses without the divine light focusing on them. Once they are
driven out a soul is illumined and, being transformed, beholds the light within itself" (1.22). For many Christians, certainly for
myself, life is a matter of both running towards God and running away from his light. We love God and yet his light shows us more about
ourselves than we want to see. It takes great courage to let the light reveal all our hidden darknesses.

But, before the moment of death, our actions and commitments in life have revealed the direction we have chosen for our lives -- to live
for God or to live without him. Even if we have lived for God, however, we may not yet be able to withstand the full vision of his glory. We may need further purification; we may still need the light to reveal all our places of darkness to us.

Spiritual writers over the centuries have disagreed as to whether purgatory is a place of material punishment as well as purification.
Sometimes one might gain the impression that purgatory is akin to a temporary hell.

While the Catechism of the Catholic Church does not exclude the possibility of material fire, it gives greater emphasis to the notion
of purgatory as cleansing or purification. It states plainly that the purification experienced in purgatory "is entirely different from the
punishment of the damned" (no. 1031). Purgatory does not represent condemnation; it is part of the path to holiness.

I'd like to quote a good Roman Catholic understanding of purgatory which, I believe, addresses the Orthodox understanding of
purification in the afterlife:

Saint Francis de Sales wrote: "We may draw from the thought of purgatory more consolation than apprehension. The greater part of those who dread purgatory so much think more of their own interests than the interests of God's glory; this proceeds from the fact that they think only the sufferings without considering the peace and
happiness which are there enjoyed by the holy souls. It is true that the torments are so great that the most acute sufferings of this life
bear no comparison to them; but the interior satisfaction which is there enjoyed is such that no prosperity or contenment upon earth
equal it.

THE SOULS ARE IN CONTINUAL UNION WITH GOD (emphasis mine). They are perfectly resigned to His will, or rather their will is so
transformed into that of God that they cannot will but what God wills; so that if Paradise were to be opened to them, they would precipitate themselves into hell rather than appear before God with the stains with which themselves disfigured. They purify themselves
willingly and lovingly, because such is the divine good pleasure.

They wish to be there in the state wherein God pleases, and as long as it shall please him. They cannot sin, nor can they experience the
least movement of impatience,nor commit the slightest imperfection. They love God more than they love themselves, and more than anything
else; they love him with a perfect, pure and disinterested love. They are consoled by angels. They are assured of their eternal salvation,
and filled with a hope that can never be disappointed in its expectations. Their bitterest anguish is soothed by a certain
profound peace. **It is a species of Hell as regards the sufferring; it is a Paradise as regards the delight infused into their hearts by
charity.** Charity, stronger than death and more powerful than hell. Charity, whose lamps are all fire and flame. Happy state! More
desirable than appalling,since its flames are flames of love and charity." ("What is Purgatory Really Like" by Charles Kovari,SJ -
imprimatur by James Mahoney, DD)