www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Purgatory, what is it?

Hello,

I don't really understand the theology of Purgatory and which scriptures are used to show that it exists. Would someone help me?

Thanks,

BradM

Well, the only thing officially defined by the Church about what you call "Purgatory" is that some souls, before entering Heaven, are cleansed of their sins and that prayer is efficacious for these souls.

Cleansed how? We don't know.
Efficacious how? We don't know.

We don't know the processes, the goings-on...we don't know anything except what I stated above.

With that said, different theologoumena (Latin, Byzantine, and otherwise) have developed to extrapolate on this process/place/realm. Toll houses, torturous fires, etc. are all undefined and fallible guesses.

Logos Teen

Dear Brad,

"Purgatory" is being in union with Rome right now.

Alex

Dear Alex:

Don't you think it is good for the UGCC's "soul?"

It is now being cleansed of a "vain ambition!"

AmdG

Brad,

The primary source for purgatory is found in 2 Macc 12:38-46 where prayers are said "that the sinful deed might be fully blotted out." This sin was wearing amulets to a false god. Because the soldiers who did this were slain these are prayers offered for the dead. Since neither those in heaven nor those in Hell can benefit from prayer, it follows that some third alternative is being considered here.

Edward, deacon and sinner

Brad:

I'm not sure this Forum is the best place to get your question answered, since Purgatory, is not part of the Eastern theological or eschatological Tradition.

But all the best on your inquiry!

Herb

Dear Herb,

Actually, St Peter Mohyla of Kyiv defended Purgatory in his initial "Orthodox-Catholic Catechism."

When the Eastern Patriarchs revised it and removed that word, he continued to teach it in his Metropolia.

And John Meyendorff has stated that there were Orthodox who both understood and accepted "Purgatory" in the RC sense.

Most EC's that I know would accept Purgatory and especially in the UGCC where both Purgatory and indulgences are to be found in all prayerbooks.

Alex

Dear Amado,

Why "vain?"

His Holiness Pope John Paul II didn't think that Patriarch Josef was pursuing a vain ambition with respect to the patriarchate during his funeral address for him.

Is it not better to say that Rome is pursuing a vain ambition with Moscow?

But time will tell.

I'll remind you of what you said when the time comes!

Alex

Hello everyone,
I have heard that Dr. Scott Hahn has said that it is proper to consider these three names to refer to the same third state after death: Purgatory (Latin: purgatorio), Hades, and Sheol (Hebrew). That what we consider to be "eternal hellfire" a.k.a. "the lake of fire" is called Gehenna.

Consider:
Revelation 20:14
"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death."

Couldn't one consider Hades to be Purgatory (a third state) and the "lake of fire" to be Hell?

BradM+�+

But this is a Catholic website right? Don't eastern Catholics believe all that is in the Catechism of the Catholic Church? Even if they would use a different name than Purgatory?

BradM+�+

Dear Brad,

No, this is not a Catholic website.

The Administrator has, on a number of occasions said that it is not.

This is an Eastern Christian website for all Eastern Christians to come and discuss matters of Eastern concern.

"Purgatory" is, in and of itself a Latin term defining a Latin idea - even though it has been accepted by certain Easterners in the past.

The Byzantine East rejects the idea that purgatorial fire cleanses souls in need of such cleansing before entrance into Heaven.

Even the EC's at the Unon of Florence were not required to confess a "purgatorial fire."

Eastern eschatology sees souls being in either a "forecourt" of heaven or a "forecourt" of hell.

Prayer for the dead is efficacious and is do copiously until the Final Judgement when we, as composite being, bodies and souls, will be assigned to a final place.

Alex

dear Brad and Orthodox Catholic:

Let me refer you to an Excellent article on the Byzantine understand of the "last things": http://www.unicorne.org/orthodoxy/avrilmai/ends.htm

Herb

ps: there are some real differences between Latin theology and the theology of the Eastern Churches and the differences are not just a matter of semantics. And yet, here we are, all in Communion with one other, in Truth and Love, a Communion whose major ministry is His Holiness, the Pope of Rome.

Well, Alex, now you're gonna get me in trouble! I just suggested to a Traditionalist Catholic friend at another forum that he should come here to learn about the Eastern Rites.

I made a big point of telling him that this was all fully Catholic and in communion with the Pope, etc., so now he's going to see this thread and beat me up! (figuratively speaking of course! )

Well, I will just gently direct his attention to one of the other threads and hope he doesn't accidentally stumble on this one ...

How do you all understand my post where I reference Revelation 20:14?

Revelation 20:14
"Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death."

If we have heaven (the beatific vision) being one state; Hell (the lake of fire, Gehenna) being another state; and Hades, do we not have 3 states of being in the afterlife?

Rev 20:14 says that Hades will be in existence as long as death is in existence which means all the way until the Final judgement, correct? Then there must be a purpose for Hades. Then after the Final judgment death and Hades are thrown into the "lake of fire", Hell (Gehenna).

Hello, All!

First, a point on the Forum. The Forum is an Eastern Christian Forum, not specifically an Eastern Catholic Forum. There are several reasons for this. First, I believe that Eastern Christians are already one Church, even if we continue to be separated. If you wish to know why I believe this then I will direct you to read and pray over Pope John Paul II�s apostolic letter Orientale Lumen. Second, if we are to have fair discussions on issues there needs to be a level playing field and all opinions need to be treated with respect.

2. Look at the quote in context of the paragraph:

I saw the dead, the great and the lowly, standing before the throne, and scrolls were opened. Then another scroll was opened, the book of life. The dead were judged according to their deeds, by what was written in the scrolls. The sea gave up its dead; then Death and Hades gave up their dead. All the dead were judged according to their deeds. Then Death and Hades were thrown into the pool of fire. (This pool of fire is the second death.) Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the pool of fire. Revelations 20:12-15

My understanding is that �pool of fire� is not a reference to the cleansing that occurs after death (which the Latin Catholics call purgatory) but hell itself. I looked the verse up in the Jerome Biblical Commentary (page 491) and this is a summary for verses 13-15.

13. Death and Hades: The insatiable, diabolical monster and the place where the dead abide (6:8). In the future era, death will be unknown (21:4).

14. into the lake of fire: A personification of death joins the false prophet (19:20) and Satan (v. 10) in the lake of fire; death is rendered powerless (Is 25:8; Hos 13:14; 1 Cor 15:26, 54). the second death: Those who undergo this death must abandon hope, for there is no possibility of a new resurrection.

The lake of fire is the place where those who reject God�s grace dwell forever. It is an image of hell.

The more traditional Scriptural references supporting the cleansing state (or journey for us Easterners) of the soul after death are found in: 2 Mc 12:43-46; Mt 5:25f: 12:32; Lk 12:58f; 1 Cor 3:15; 1 Pt 3:18-20; 1 Jn 5:16; Rv 5:3, 13

When thinking of the Latin theology of purgatory keep two things in mind: 1) we all undergo a journey after death, one that may continue until Judgment Day 2) prayer for those on that journey is helpful. Those who are on that journey can pray for us and we can pray for them as we together are part of the great cloud of witnesses that the author of the Letter to the Hebrews spoke of (Chapter 12).

Admin