www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Purgatory, what is it?

Yes, very beautifully put, Elexeie. Some of the language and imagery popular in the West is very off-putting to Easterners; heck, it was off-putting to me when I was a Roman Catholic. I always saw it the way you described it [reading CS Lewis and St Catherine of Genoa helped] and even the very etymology of the word helped: "Purgatory" is so obviously derived from "purgation" it always seemed the obvious stress in understanding the doctrine.
I actually believed in purgatory even during my evangelical Protestant phase. First, I had read Lewis. Second, I often considered "what if I were to die today and stand before the all-pure and all-beautiful Christ?" It was obvious to me that my initial reaction would be shame and anguish over my unworthy soul and this would be painful. I never understood my Protestant brethren, so obviously lacking in holiness, thinking that they would die and immediately feel right at home!

Alex! Ah well yes, but purgation is necessary if we are to enter into the Kingdom of Heaven. Is it not.And without purgation then we can only find ourselves outside where the is mourning and weeping and the nashing of teeth.
Stephanos I

Alex! Question?
Then the Eastern Christians are "NOT" part of the One Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church?
What are they then, Heretics?
Stephanos I

From the looks of it.......I thnk Purgatory is the best thing that has come along since, well, heaven or hell........especially when we die unprepared, like in a commuter train, or our car on the way to work.

If God is all merciful and all forgiving, wouldn't it make sense that HE would allow us some time to "purge" ourselves of our sinfullness at the time of our death, rather than just tell us to go to hell!

I would like a chance or a time to make amends for my sinfulness, and not be eternally damed because I was "caught off guard" talking on my cell phone as I ran in to that telephone poll!

Is God really black or white, meaning, He would think: "ahh, caught you in a state of sinfullness".....you lose a chance, and go directly to jail., or hell!
So much then for a loving and forgiving God...
Purgatory only proves that God gives us another chance to retain grace, through our prayers and those who pray for us......
Otherwise, why have liturgies for the dead?
A good question for the Orthodox...
Fr. MJS

But to enter into the state of purgation you must die in a state of grace, that is in the friendship of God. Purgatory is not a place for those who die in what St John calls mortal sin.

Dear Purgatory Promoters!

(Perhaps I should title this, "Letter to the Latins?" )

Fr. Michael (bless!) has raised a good question about Purgatory.

IF there is no Purgatory, then why all the liturgies for the dead?

However, with all due respect to Father Michael, Father Stephanos (I'm still not convinced he's not a Metropolitan of some kind) and others, even though they are not clerics ( ), the question is a Latin one . . .

My question would be, from an Orthodox Christian point of view, if I may pretend to be one for a moment, , if the Orthodox Church herself does not believe in Purgatory, why does IT pray so much for the dead - indeed even more than the contemporary Latin Church (or so some of the priests on EWTN have said . . .)?

We EC's tend to approach the question from a Latin perspective that says that if you are not completely pure and holy, you can't get into heaven, and if you haven't died in the state of mortal sin, totally cut off from God's Grace, then where do you go after death?

This state of purification that will only end with an eventual release into Heaven is called "purgatory."

There are all kinds of views on purgatory and the Latin theologian Ladislas Boros had his view.

He said that when a soul sees Christ in all His Greatness and Holiness, the soul feels very sorrowful for not having responded as fully as it could in life to Christ's Love and Grace.

This sorrow creates a purging "fire" within it that cleanses it and makes it worthy of heaven etc.

And RC's will argue today over whether Purgatory is a "state" or a "place" or whatever.

The Orthodox perspective was first made apparent to Latin ears at the Council of Florence.

As Fr. Meyendorff states in a number of his works, the Orthodox were shocked to learn that the Latins had "neatly" developed the after-life prior to Christ's Second Coming into several categories: Heaven, Hell, Purgatory and Limbo.

For the Orthodox, the afterlife prior to Christ's Second Coming is a kind of "forecourt."

Prayer for the dead can and must be made by the Church on earth for all who died that they be brought to heaven and stand at the Right of the Lamb on the Day of the Final Judgement.

St Peter Mohyla's Catechism states that even if we see someone commit a serious sin before they die, it is our obligation to pray to God to ask God not to hold that sin against him or her etc.

And the idea of a "purging fire" is more related to the West's juridical and legalistic notions of works, balancing spiritual books, and punishment.

The East has an ENTIRELY different perspective on this - and this is why the West did NOT require the Greeks coming under Rome at Florence to hold to a "purgatorial fire" which is a product of medieval Latin theology.

It is God's Grace that cools and soothes our self-inflicted wounds of our sins. The Grace that comes also from the prayer of the Church and of all Christians for those who have reposed. It is really only at the Final Judgement that we will receive, as composite, body-soul beings, our ultimate fate.

Let us also note that the Eastern Church also prays FOR the Mother of God and the Saints, as is shown in the Priest's prayers in the Divine Liturgy.

The dynamic understanding of eternal glory here shows that even Saints can be brought into closer communion with God, even though it is already intense.

In every which way, the Eastern Church's understanding of eschatology differs from that of the Latin Church - no one is saying that one is more valid than the other, although the Eastern Church's view is older than the more rationally developed medieval Latin view.

We Eastern Christians do indeed pray constantly for the dead - there are 12 times at which we liturgically pray for the dead and reposed.

Every Saturday is dedicated to the faithful departed.

Eastern priests commemorate one departed for each day for 40 days after death when family and friends also are to go "all out" in praying the Psalter for their dead - and afterwards.

The contemporary Latin Church has dropped the idea of "Limbo."

And, if what the EWTN priests say is true, the Latins have dropped off praying for the dead as zealously as they once did.

I would recommend Fr. Michael Pomazansky's book, "Orthodox Dogmatic Theology" for an excellent discussion of this topic.

Alex

I don't think this is true everwhere. The daily mass intentions are listed in my parish bulletin and almost every mass, weekday and sunday, is offered for a soul. Often several. The book table after mass is loaded with rosary, novena, and other devotional books for the dead so I assume those things are still popular. The past several years our parish has gotten together with a couple of neighboring ones for a special mass on All Souls/Day of the Dead and its always gotten a huge turnout. At least in my parish, people are fairly zealous in praying for the dead. Some of it maybe cultural as my parish is predominantly Mexican-American but I've noticed some interest in the dead when reading papers like "Our Sunday Vistor" and such.
Maybe as much of the population gets older and with the influence of EWTN and other more 'traditional' groups, we'll see a revival of praying for the dead where that has lessened.

WOW!
I have crossed the Rubicon......and am officially a full fledged member, no longer a junior one. It's like when I got tonsured, albeit without some smart alec "junior" sems dropping the traditional two bowling balls in the seminary's dormitory, which would echo throughout the seminary that evening!

It's like this post. We are in "purgatory" as junior members, and after we have posted enough posts, we can then fully enjoy the beautific vision of "The Forum" in all its glory!

member, fr.mjs

OOPS
I meant "Subdiaconate" not tonsure. Must be my receding hairline getting the best of me....

Well we certainly remember the dead of our Parish.

Throughout the year they are mentioned specifically in the Prayers of the Faithful at Mass each day.

We have an annual Mass durng the Month of the Holy Souls, for the relatives and friends of all members of the Parish who have died during the year . This special Mass is always well attended and the readings and Prayers of the Faithful are always read by relatives of the deceased.

Their names are entered in a Book of Remembrance which is displayed that month and we are encouraged to pray each day for those who have died on that day .

Anhelyna

Dear Friends,

What about "ghosts?"

My mother-in-law was visiting my wife's aunt in New Jersey last week, soon after the aunt's second husband had died.

My mother-in-law awoke in the middle of the night to see what she believed was the ghost of the dead uncle, in military uniform (he was always enthusiastic about his military service), hovering near her bed - he looked at her and slowly moved out of the bedroom.

Daria is one of the most skeptical persons when it comes to things like this - it really had an impact on her!

My question is - could it be possible to see a ghost like that?

If so, and IF it was the spirit of the uncle - what does that mean?

Is he in a kind of Purgatory and is seeking prayers?

Hmmmm . . .?

Alex

Dear Alex,

I believe that is an excellent question...

On the island that my grandmother came from (Chios), there was a tragic massacre of monumental proportions by the Ottomans in the 1800's. (Memorialized in a painting by Delacroix)...Since then, every generation of locals has talked about seeing ghosts dressed in the costume of that era, who laugh and laugh...I must admit, that one evening at 12 midnight about twenty-five years ago, I heard this unwordly cackling laugh of women outside my window, and there were no people around!

I know that Orthodox priests have blessed many of the spots where these sightings were, and also where other tragic deaths have occured, and I think that it is because of these blessings to the unfortunate souls who linger, (for whatever reason, ...although your theory of 'some sort of purgatory' makes alot of sense to me), there is hardly any talk of sightings any more.

Alex, I enjoy your posts so much...You always bring up such interesting food for thought!

Just some thoughts of my own....
In Christ,
Alice

It is a BOTH . It is not "neither" or "nor".

Limbo was not a doctrine of the Latin Church. It is just a theological opinion.

Does the Toll Houses fit in this picture?

Which was never defined by the failed Union Council of Florence.

Dear elexie,

Magandang Omaga!

Mabu hay Ang-Filipinas!!

I don't know if Purgatory can be compared to the Toll House view - like Limbo, it is an Orthodox opinion and not a doctrine.

(Limbo was never defined as a doctrine, but it was bandied about at Florence by the Latins.)

The toll-houses are, in fact, tied ONLY to the period, whatever it is in the afterlife, that we measure by forty days and nights following the repose of the soul.

This 40-day period is when the Church and the faithful pray earnestly for the soul as it prepares to be judged by Christ and receive its "assignment" until His Second Coming.

Purgatory can last well beyond 40 days . . .

The East categorically denies that the illumination or purification (which therefore is not Theosis which is the Divinization of what is already holy) of souls after death is a "place."

It denies that we enter either into Heaven or Hell before the Second Coming of Christ (see Bl. Theophylact's commentary on the Gospel of Luke).

"Some will ask, 'How can the Lord say to the thief, Today thou shalt be with Me in paradise, when Paul said that none of the saints had received the promise?' (Heb.11:39) . . . The repentant thief did obtain paradise, but he has not yet obtained the kingdom . . . In the meantime, he has paradise, which is a place of spiritual rest . . . even if the kingdom of heaven and paradise are one and the same, this does not prevent both the Lord's words and Paul's from being in agreement. For the good thief is in paradise, that is in the the kingdom, and not only he . . . He does not yet enjoy the full inheritance of good things . . . so too with the saints: although they do not yet enjoy their reward in full (that will come after the Second Coming of Christ - my note), nevertheless, in the meanwhile they pass their time in places of light, of fragrance, of royalty, in short, in the tabernacles of the righteous, although they are not yet entitled to the full measure of the gifts of the kingdom. (Theophylact of Bulgaria, Gospel of Luke, Chapter 23).

The Eastern Churches would therefore find BOTH the doctrine of Purgatory AND its related eschatology to be in contradiction with what it believes.

Eastern Catholics are content to leave the differences alone, saying it comes to the same thing.

Alex

Dear Alice,

Yes, I've had struggles with the "other world" on a few occasions.

One time, the clothing in all our dresser-drawers flew into the air and were floating around the bedroom while the furniture moved and the lights came on. The clothing all came to light on me, from head to foot, but it did not cover my face or mouth.

When we moved into our new home, there was a loud knocking inside in a series of ten knocks - always ten, I counted . . .

I blessed the house with Holy Water and then had a priest come in to bless it, and the knocking stopped.

I've no doubt that such phenomena are a daily occurence and that we can often witness it and yet not recognize it or walk right past it.

I've seen that happen too!

We need to keep our guard, to be ready with our Crosses, prayers, especially the Jesus Prayer as the weapons we have at our disposal, given to us by Christ, to fight the wiles of the Evil One.

Have a restful night tonight!

(My wife has had trouble sleeping since hearing the above story from her mother!)

Alex