www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology On the Last things

I know very little about the Eastern way of thought about this issue, so here are the questions:

What is the Eastern perspective of Purgatory, Heaven, and Hell? Are they places or states of being? How does it all work after death? Also, what is this belief that I heard from somewhere about the soul staying on earth for 40 days after death? Thank you.

May God bless you.

Well, there is no Eastern teaching on Purgatory, so that pretty much ends that question. Yes, we do believe in a purgation, but what form that takes is not revealed so we haven't developed a theology about it. There have been theological speculations (theologumena) but nothing official.

The presence of heaven and hell are clearly defined, and accepted by the Eastern Catholics. Whether they are states of being or places is not revealed and so are not a part of our theology.

Fr. Deacon Edward

Dear Roman Army you posted:

"What is the Eastern perspective of Purgatory, Heaven, and Hell? Are they places or states of being?"

I say:

I believe the Orthodox Church doesn't, or at least shouldn't be placing anything within boundaries. Actually, the 'true' Greek language, that is the language without foreign words, seems to be made up of verbs so that everthing is expressed within a combination of actions.

Since Greek uses verbs with many different endings, and a combination of verbs to express something, I don't know how they could possible consider heaven a place rather that a spiritual growth within us. The word 'heaven' can only be perceived as a noun with boundaries, and therefore a 'place'. Remember, the Kingdom of God is within us... and in the Orthodox faith we are progressing after death from 'glory' to 'glory'.

What the RCC considers a purgation of sins, the Orthodox would think of in terms of attaining a higher achievement towards reaching an eventual union with God...or so I believe. Purely a different outlook with basically the same results.

You said:

" Also, what is this belief that I heard from somewhere about the soul staying on earth for 40 days after death? Thank you."

I say:

This is a belief in the Orthodox Church, and frankly I have sensed people that have died and that I have loved as being close to me for forty days. But again, this is my personal experience.

Zenovia

But, they do accept the teaching though right? Do they teach about the existance of a purgation?

May God bless you

The reason why I asked about if Heaven, Purgatory, or Hell, is a place or state of being is because Pope John Paul II said that they are states of being (or conditions of existance) and not places. However, he did say that after the resurection of the body the bodies and souls of the damned will recieve the same punishment and will require a place to contain them. His statements appeared to be ex cathedra. But, I'm unsure. However, I do believe in what he said.

Here's the link to it: http://www.ewtn.com/library/PAPALDOC/JP2HEAVN.HTM#Hell

I think that the Holy Father was quoted as saying such (remember he was misquoted alot) because except for those who are already in Heaven body and soul (like Jesus and Mary, et al) you and I and everyone else will only exist as souls in Heaven (after cleansing, purgation) so a place requires physical stuff, matter. Not only that but Heaven is Eternal no time there. So the idea that it has to be a state is offered. Place = height x width x length x time.

A "state" doesn't have to conform to the rules of this universe.

Yes, of course there is a teaching regarding purgation, i.e., that such a thing happens. The form or manner of this is not defined. There have been attempts at formulating teaching with regard to this. You may have heard of "Toll Booths" which is one attempt to understand this. There were even a couple of Orthodox theologians who accepted what appears to be the Roman teaching on this.

However, as far as I know there is no offical Orthodox teaching with regard to the manner of purgation and, in fact, Eastern Catholics, too, avoid formally defining this.

Fr. Deacon Edward

Well Jesus Christ our Lord and G-d said that He has a "place" for us...a heavenly mansion of our own.

So what does that mean then?

I don't believe in this discussion on the forum. Jesus Christ was pretty clear on that and let's leave as that.

SPDundas
Deaf Byzantine

One, He could have been talking symbolically, ie "I am the vine and you are the branches," or "I am the door..." and the like.

Or more likely he was talking about after the resurrection when everyone has a body and could live in the splendorous mansions that He has prepared for us.

Awaiting that day,
Dr. Eric

Greetings to all. I like to believe that Our Lord and Savior gave us a glimpse of our future when he gave the Sermon on the Mount. To me, this speaks wonders. Regarding the state of the human condition until then is a mystery that will be revealed in its own time and even though I want to know, I will just have to accept it.

The Beatitudes

1 And seeing the multitudes, He went up on a mountain, and when He was seated His disciples came to Him. 2 Then He opened His mouth and taught them, saying:


3 "Blessed are the poor in spirit,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.
4 Blessed are those who mourn,
For they shall be comforted.
5 Blessed are the meek,
For they shall inherit the earth.

6 Blessed are those who hunger and thirst for righteousness,
For they shall be filled.
7 Blessed are the merciful,
For they shall obtain mercy.
8 Blessed are the pure in heart,
For they shall see God.
9 Blessed are the peacemakers,
For they shall be called sons of God.
10 Blessed are those who are persecuted for righteousness' sake,
For theirs is the kingdom of heaven.

11 "Blessed are you when they revile and persecute you, and say all kinds of evil against you falsely for My sake. 12 Rejoice and be exceedingly glad, for great is your reward in heaven, for so they persecuted the prophets who were before you."


Believers Are Salt and Light

13 "You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt loses its flavor, how shall it be seasoned? It is then good for nothing but to be thrown out and trampled underfoot by men.
14"You are the light of the world. A city that is set on a hill cannot be hidden. 15 Nor do they light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on a lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works and glorify your Father in heaven."


SOURCE: THE GOSPEL OF MATTHEW

In Christ,

Michael

The New Jerusalem...

"Then I saw a new heaven and a new earth for the first heaven and the first earth had passed away, and there was no longer any sea. I saw the Holy City, the new Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God, prepared as a bride beautifully dressed for her husband. And I heard a loud voice from the throne saying, "Now the dwelling of God is with men, and he will live with them. They will be his people, and God himself will be with them and be their God. He will wipe every tear from their eyes. There will be no more death or mourning or crying or pain, "for the old order of things has passed away."

He who was seated on the throne said, "I am making everything new!" Then he said, "Write this down, for these words are trustworthy and true."

He said to me: "It is done. I am the Alpha and the Omega, the Beginning and the End. To him who is thirsty I will give to drink without cost from the spring of the water of life. He who overcomes will inherit all this, and I will be his God and he will be my son." (Revelation 21:1-7)

Archimandrite George Branch (Brianchaninov) MIC of Melbourne (Australia) got his doctorate aany years ago on the end times etc. I suppose it was published at the time but dont know where anyone would find it, what language it is in.

To All,

Since we're on the topic of what the Orthodox believe about the after life, I am quoting an excerpt from SAINT GREGORY PALAMAS AS A HAGIORITE by Metropolitan of Nafpaktos Hierotheos and translated by Esther William:

Man was made in the image and likeness of God. In the teaching of the holy fathers the likeness is equivalent to the deification of man. therefore the purpose of man is to attain deification.

However, in the teaching of st. Gregory Palamas deification is not an abstract state, it is not an intellectual elaboration of thoughts and imagination, it is not a moral life, but the vision of the uncreated Light.

When a person attains the vision of the uncreated Light in the Person of the Logos, he is deified. The vision of the uncreated Light is "union and deification" of a person, "participation and deifying communion".During deification a person is united with god.

St. Gregory is clear. "So the contemplation of this light is a union...but is the union with this light other than a vision?" Man's vision of god and deification offer the true knowledge of god. the knowledge of god and theology are not a development of reasoning, but a life beyond reasoning. They surpass human seeing and knowing and of coure are "superior to the light of knowledge".

Therefore the vision of God in the Person of the Logos is the deification of man; deification is man's union with god and this union offers divine knowledge, which surpasses human knowledge.

There are many degrees of vision of the Light. We gave a few preliminary hints. But here we wish to add that there is no ending to this perfection. In patristic theology standing still is regarded as falling.

St. Gregory Palamas writes about this point: "This vision of God has both a beginning and things after the beginning, varyin in darkness and clarity: but there is no end at all, for its progress is infinite, like that of the ravishment in revalation". So there is no end to this vision of God, but an endless progression. Therefore "illumination is a different thing from a steady sight of light, and both differ from seeing things in the light..."

Vision of the uncreated Light has many degrees. It depends on the person's spiritual condition and God's gift. The experience of God's purifying, inlightening and deifying energy operates in accordance with the degree of one's participation in divine Grace.

+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

Now that should make the Orthodox belief in 'heaven' clear to everyone. Huh?

Actually, what he is saying is that we go from glory to glory. Also that by the deifying energy operating in accordance with the degree of one's participation in divine Grace, he is basically saying that the 'Kingdom of God' is within us.

I believe that Saint Seraphim of Sarov was in a 'state' of heaven (deifycation) while still on earth.

Zenovia