www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology St. Gregory Palamas

This thread has been...lively, to say the least.

While I have no problem with commemorating people like St. Gregory Palamas and St. Mark of Ephesus. In fact I quite like it, and I think it is important from an ecumenical perspective.

Francisco does raise an interesting point:

the importance of distinguishing those aspects of Saints which teach and exemplify the Gospel and God's love from those aspects of Saints [whether their lives or statements] which are not part of the sacred tradition or which even may be sinful.

While there are Orthodox Saints who were polemical against that Latin Church, I'm pretty sure [though I can't quote any right at this moment] that there were Latin Saints who were Extremely polemical in their attitudes and statements against the Orthodox and Orthodox teaching and practice [Orthodox teaching and practices that are presently very well accepted by Eastern Catholics and their Church authorities].

And there are certainly Saints who have made Anti-semitic statements.

I suspect it comes as a bit of a shock to our Latin ecclesial cousins [and even a bit of a shock to some of our fellow Eastern Catholics [who may not be as Orthodox as they should be]] to hear us commemorate Saints who spoke polemically against the Latin Church.

But then, why should I be surprised, since it comes as a shock to some people [Latins and even some Eastern Catholics] that we [Eastern Catholics/Orthodox in Communion with Rome] are not members of the same institutional Church, but Churches in Communion with one another.

Of course we are all members of the one Body of the Christ.

cix

herb.

Dear Herbigny,

Excellent points!

However, I don't think one will find an Eastern Catholic Church that will liturgically venerate St. Mark of Ephesus . . .

I once knew a Ukrainian Catholic priest who wanted to start a church brotherhood dedicated to him, but no . . .

Rome has formally acknowledged Gregory Palamas as a saint and one can find him on "Catholic Saints Online."

And the formerly Miaphysite Church of Georgia which is part of the Eastern Orthodox Church family continues to venerate its saints who were part of the Oriental Orthodox tradition, especially St David of Garesja who both attacked and was attacked by Greek theologians of his day.

And ST David and others are now in the general Orthodox calendar as well.

Basically, while certain Saints of Orthodoxy were known to attack Rome, that wasn't, by far, the overriding focus of their activity in life.

Even St Paissy Velichkovsky, mentioned in the Way of the Pilgrim as the great teacher of the Jesus Prayer he was and continues to be for many today had some nasty things to say about Rome and the "Unia" - he promoted devotion to St Mark of Ephesus for this very reason.

And yet, his descendant, Bl. Basil Velichkovsky is a Catholic martyr.

And how impoverished would our spirituality be without Paissy's teachings on the Jesus Prayer!

While liturgical veneration to St Mark of Ephesus might still be difficult to reconcile with a commitment to communion with Rome, a more irenical consideration of his motives at Florence would lead one to see that he recognized Rome as first among equals and was ready to achieve union but only by Rome dropping the Filioque from the Creed.

Again, if what has been written about a "false union" by Stuart (and the Administrator?) here, not by me, but by them, is correct, and I believe it is, then there should be no problem with Mark as well.

I just love the icon of the Pillars of Orthodoxy! Don't you?

Alex

ps:

I even knew a Priest of one Eastern Catholic jurisdiction that put up in his Church the icon of St. Alexis Toth!

And knowing something of what Alexis Toth went through, one can't help but be sympathetic!

herb.

Dear Herbigny,

I have some Lemko friends who are Greek Catholic but venerate St Maxim Sandovich very highly, even though the latter was Orthodox and was martyred by Catholics etc.

When I told my father the story of St Athanasius of Brest, how this Orthodox martyr opposed the Latins etc., my father almost cried and said that this saint should be venerated in the Ukrainian Catholic Church.

I have since found out that he was, until recently.

There is more than just the theological side to any saint's life.

Georgian Orthodox today aren't going to give up their historic Georgian saints because they were Oriental rather than Eastern Orthodox.

In fact, Eastern Catholic devotion to Sts. Volodymyr and Olha, Boris and Hlib and the Kyivan Caves Lavra saints is based on our Orthodox heritage, as these were all canonized by the Orthodox Church.

And this doesn't prevent Rome from including them all in the Roman calendar today, but under their Christian names ("Boris and Hlib" = "Roman and David.").

And while Francisco might disagree, Spain does include "heretics" in its saints' calendar.

St Basil the Great wrote a panegyric in honour of St Nicetas the Goth (patron of Bessarabia).

Nicetas was ordained Arian priest by the Arian leader Ulfilas - author of a famous Arian creed.

Yet, Nicetas' martyrdom made the Church and St Basil overlook the defect of his Orthodoxy.

I have an icon with the Kyivan Caves Mother of God. She is flanked by St Anastasia on one side - and by St Nicetas the Goth on the other.

Alex

You might want to check with the Russian Catholics. Their Menaion is essentially that of the Russian Orthodox Church ca. 1905. What with all that "add nothing, delete nothing, change nothing" stuff, they probably have a feast day for Mark Eugenicus.

Dear Mar Stuart,

Actually, Mark of Ephesus was dropped from the Russian Catholic calendar in Rome's 1904 decision on St Andrew Sheptytsky's petition on the saints of Russian Orthodoxy.

As was St Athanasius of Brest as well.

I know Russian Catholics who keep the icon of the "Pillars of Orthodoxy" for private veneration (as do we both ) but it is not used for public liturgical veneration.

Fr. Serge Keleher is the one who introduced me to the "Pillars of Orthodoxy" (no, I'm not referring to you and Brendan, although you guys are definitely contenders ).

Fr. Keleher, a Russian Catholic priest, never did liturgically venerate it nor was it in any Russian Catholic calendar that he knew of - nor did he expected it to be.

Did you want to join me in creating an on-line Brotherhood of St Mark of Ephesus?

It has always been my dream . . .

Alex

Dearest brother in Christ, Alex,

Please forgive me for what I say, for it is said in love.

Our Holy Father, Saint Mark of Ephesus opposed the union of Florence-Ferrara not because he and the Orthodox would have to change their liturgical rites, calendar or Tradition, but because he and they could not be in communion with those who rejected the fullness of the Orthodox Christian faith. His views remind us of the Orthodox understanding of the Holy Church. Not only do we share in the Orthodoxy of those with whom we share Christian fellowship, but adversely we also share in their errors. I may hold the most dogmatically sound Orthodox ideas in the world, but if I am communion with those who have doctrines condemned by the Holy Church, I share in their errors - and I fall under the anethemas with equal guilt.

In Orthodoxy we believe that the calendar, liturgical rites etc. are an epiphany - a showing forth and manifestation of the dogmas of the faith. Before the creed we say, Let us love one another THAT WITH ONE MIND we may confess... - and when we do say the creed, it is the voice of the whole Church in total agreement and harmony.

Please do not be angry. I am not judging or condemning anyone here, I have enough filth in my own soul and accuse only myself! However, I don't think that a Byzantine Catholic can seriously talk about venerating a confessor who stood up against compromise and union before a full dogmatic agreement is truly reached.

I hope that this will not cause offence to ANYONE, but I must speak from the heart.

Pray for me a sinner,
Mark, unworthy monk.

Bless me a sinner, Father Mark!

I am not offended by what you say - indeed, and strange as it may seem to you, I agree with you.

Orthodox saints have been venerated by Roman Catholics and Eastern Catholics - including Muslims - for centuries.

St Basil Ostrozhky is one good example.

St Job of Pochaiv was and is venerated by Roman Catholics and Greek Catholics. Indeed, on the wall of the Cathedral in Pochaiv, there is a depiction of a RC woman receiving a healing through St Job of Pochaiv.

I've also come across Orthodox who venerate RC saints such as St Francis of Assisi - e.g. the Orthodox Monks of New Skete, OCA in New York who do print his icon.

The Orthodox calendar itself contains the name of St David of Garesja, at least my St Herman's Calendar has it.

And David of Garesja was a saint of the Oriental Church of Georgia and was attacked for his theology by the Greek Orthodox of his day as "that putrefaction" from Georgia.

And yet he is today in the Orthodox calendar, as are many Arian, Nestorian and saints from other Churches that have since come into communion with Orthodoxy.

And we Eastern Catholics agree with St Mark of Ephesus on the score of the Filioque.

St Mark, as you know, went to Florence in favour of communion with Rome and his minimal requirement was removal of the Filioque - not even Rome's repudiation of the doctrine itself.

He believed that God would heal the heresy after full communion was restored - but the Filioque had to be out of the creed in order for that to happen.

We Eastern Catholics believe with St Mark of Ephesus on that score and have no problem with the spirit of his approach. And we agree that it is better not to enter a bad or false union.

And we pray for Rome to remove the Filioque as well and believe Rome is moving in that direction.

But we still remain heretics, don't we?

And as long as we respect one another and say a few nice things in one another's direction once in awhile, life is good . . .

And I thank you for your blessing me who, in your eyes, although I hope not in God's, is a Heterdox Christian,

Alex

Fr. Mark,

Since I've been monitoring this thread carefully in an effort to avoid any misunderstandings, let me thank you for being a breath of fresh air! You have stated your position clearly and without rancor. I don't think anyone can be offended by your post.

Edward, deacon, sinner and moderator

Father Deacon Ed,

I would recommend that we declare Fr. Mark an honorary something or other to show just how much we truly do appreciate him!

An Old Believer with new perspectives!

Alex

Dearest Friends in Christ,

I have to say that I find the Byzantine forum a breath of fresh air. I have stopped reading the posts of yahoogroups because there is so much venom that it makes me ashaned to be Orthodox!

After spending eight or nine months in Slovakia seven or eight years ago I developed an interst and sympathy in Byzantine Catholicism, though being steadfast in Orthodoxy. There are many very major things that I oppose, but there's no use shouting. Also, when I look at the state of Orthodoxy today, I often see non-Orthodox Christians who set more worthy examples than the Orthodox themselves. Wqe can all learn from oneanother!!!

With love in Christ,
Mark, monk and sinner.

Bless me a sinner, Reverend Father!

I believe I speak on behalf of everyone here in welcoming you and in bowing low before you.

Some of us here sometimes shout, but we have our esteemed Moderators and Administrators to keep us on the straight and narrow. Some of us have even had the "Our Father" read to us on occasion . . .

There are many of us who are most sympathetic to the Old Believer traditions and their martyric history.

We are honoured to have you and to be able to learn from you.

Alex

Dear Alex,

First, most monks don't want any honorifics and, second, I'm not sure being called a "something or other" would be an honorific!

Edward, deacon and sinner (with tongue firmly in cheek)