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LOL!

I dont think this is the kind of reception we should give chaphenderson.

Please forgive us chaphenderson but we don't have too many Protestant visitors to this forum and we are sorry if we offended you.

We are very happy that you decided to chat with us. I hope you stay!

May God grant you many years!

I usually ask why it is that Baptists have the highest divorce rate in the United States (this is true). The anti-Catholic interrogation usually falls apart.

Well, if you really want to get serious - oh ye of little humor - I usually tell some of my Baptist friends that they understand faith and charity very well, but don't really understand hope. We Byzantines hope in Jesus Christ for our salvation. We don't have to have assurances, reassurances, or theology that locks out any possibility of us not being saved. We HOPE in Jesus who is our ONLY hope.

Funny, there is a church (protestant) near me that until VERY recently was called "The Church of the Lost and Found." Sometimes it does seem more appropriate to state "are you found" instead of saved...maybe a more acurate way to state the question? Just a thought!

In His Name,
Stephen

I think so, too. In the parable of the lost sheep, the shepherd searches for the sheep until it is found. I don't know where that "saved" business came from. The more "charitable" among us will probably get offended by this, but you have to look at the origins of some of the groups who hold certain theologies. Some Protestant groups have an intellectual tradition, and their founders based their teachings on learned reasoning. Granted, we Byzantines would not always say they arrived at correct solutions, but they were learned men. Other groups were looked upon as the "know nothings" of their day and were viewed with chagrin. These groups have acquired a respectability with the passage of time that they never enjoyed in their early days. Their founders were never known for their intellect. You really have to look at individual teachings and try to understand the thought process, if any, behind them. I am not putting the "saved" theology in either group, by the way, so lighten up you righteously indignant warriors of political correctness. I am merely saying that you do have to try to understand the times, the people who originated particular theologies, and what influences affected them.

Greetings! This is a first post for me, having just found this forum -- I'm finding the tenor of it much more suitable to my live-and-let-live sensibilities.

At any rate, I am an Eastern Christian (OCA at present) convert from the Baptists. I grew up as a PK until about high school when my father left the ministry to return to teaching grade school. I am (or rather was) quite familiar with the GARBC, Southern, and the independent groups all of which tend to take theological notions from either Calvin, who is much ado about predestination or Armenius, who was more ado about free-will. (Srinkle in some Landmark where it is vehemently denied that the Baptists are children of the reformation, but rather always existed under one name or another, and you'll have my background.)

Frankly, many of the Baptists I have known have tended not to be prepared for our answers about salvation. They may not have had the mission guide-book of the JWs, but any "wrong" answer was usually used as a door for witnessing. Because of this general tendency I would tend to insist that before any real theological discussion is begun that the Baptist spend time getting to know me, so that they get a better view of my faith in practical terms in how it is lived out. Once one of us Catholic/Orthodox sorts is known as a *person* it will be much easier to openly discuss the theological issues without instinctive responses. Sadly, while I have suffered through many complaints about how apostate (or pagan) the "Catholics" are, it is only too obvious that most Baptists' exposure to Catholicism is through mass media, The Godfather, or their work-mate who says, "Yeah I'm Catholic" but hasn't been to church since either Christmas or Easter.

The following would be totally unfair as a generalization, so let me make it absolutely clear that this is merely my own experience with a handful of people. I have found it nearly impossible to have theological discussions with my Baptist friends and family. Though most of them are college educated there is almost no historical foundation prior to the Reformation. Those that have gone in for history have frequently stuck to Old Testament and New Testament (1st century only) history learned from other Baptists or other trusted conservative evangelicals. There is a vast black hole of knowledge between 60AD and the 16th or 17th c AD. When confronted with "accepted" history or Church history they take on the mentality of a conspiracy theorist -- the world at large and the "Catholic Church" in particular has conspired to repress the "true history". So essentially one cannot argue facts because the sources cannot be agreed upon. One cannot overly rely on logic because God has revealed Himself and our logic is faulty (true enough to a point).

The saddest thing in my experience is that a rather Darwinian predatory paradigm seems to be prevalent, but instead of "eat or be eaten" it's "convert or be converted". My former friends seem afraid to learn anything about Orthodoxy out of fear that they will become corrupted by false doctrine. With the death of trust came -- at least in part -- a death of those friendships.

My friends and family are all very good intentioned people who want to see all the Catholics get saved, while admitting that probably some of them already are ("but I just don't understand how they can remain a part of that church!"). And they have a saying, "Before you can get 'em saved you have to get 'em lost!" Any sufficiently "theologized" Baptist will shoot down scripture about good works showing that they apply to the "saved" and not to the "lost" or some other means of contextualizing the obvious meaning into something else. Same with most of our diverging doctrines. For the simple or the learned about the only way to show them the truth of our doctrine (or at the very least that we, too, are Christians and not pagan idolators) is to show it living and breathing in our daily lives.

Hopefully my experience isn't that common and Baptists outside my experience are better educated and/or have a firmer foundation as well as being more open to understanding a different perspective. I love to see when Baptists come to these types of forums and don't run away but continue to participate -- it makes me curious as to how I missed out on those kinds of people when I was a Baptist... where were they then!? At any rate, I'm glad to have found this group... and I'm glad to see there have been some non-Catholic participants.

Sorry my first post is so long-winded. My wife would say that I just can't help myself... maybe she's right.

Ephrem,

Welcome to the Forum.

Not only have been, but are. Our members are a very diverse bunch - Eastern Catholics, Eastern and Oriental Orthodox, Latin Catholics, and an ever more diverse group of Protestants (used to be that one would describe the latter as being of "high church denominations, with an interest in the East" - now, it's a much broader group including, at least, Episcopalians, Presbyterians, and Baptists). We try to welcome all in charity and love, happy to share our particular Christianity.

And don't worry about being long-winded. It's a common affliction here; I once heard it suggested that I was , although I can't imagine how anyone came by that idea :rolleyes:

May God grant you many years,

Neil

Welcome, Ephrem. I think I am hearing the voice of reason from you, and that's always welcome. I have to agree with what you have said about Baptists, since that pretty well reflects most of the ones I have met in East Tennessee. Many of them practice faith untempered by reason. It's all about how they "feel" about any issue. I have heard the argument, "we've always been around," as well. I usually ask, "well what were you? Arians, Nestorians, Hindus?" There's no record of them before the 1600s that I can find. And yes, I have heard the conspiracy theory that Catholics have hidden the truth to make Baptists look bad. I usually mention that it wouldn't be conspiracy, but prophecy if the Church could look centuries ahead to deal with a group not yet in existence. It's good to keep a sense of humor when dealing with them - and no, I don't do that to tick them off, since some are quite humorless. But you are right, good example does make a difference and they do respond to it. Anyway, welcome. And none of us ever said Neil was long winded. Where did he get that? What's that expression he uses all the time? "Many ears?"

Heh-heh... Woops! Never meant to have my entire name as my nickname.

Ephrem

Ever get the feeling that you have missed something here

Originally posted by byzanTN:

> I think I am hearing the voice of reason from you

Heh! I know some folks who'd get a kick out of that thought... but thanks, I try. (It comes from wanting everyone to just get along, I think.)

> I have heard the argument, "we've always been around," as well.

Ever hear of the tract called /The Trail of Blood/? You can google it to find a copy online. The author traces the Baptists back to the 1st century, under many different names, of course: Montanists, Novations, Paterins, Puritans, Donatists, Cathari, Paulicians, Henricians, and of course the Ana-Baptists. This is just a sampling from his chart, the text goes into more detail in listing schismatic or heretical groups which he claims as being the same as the present day Baptists. The very last section is that of the "fundamental doctrines" by which the true churches can be recognized -- it is kind of an interesting list to pull from some of those old groups, to say the least.

These types of materials are kinda scary, and, well... offensive. I find it offensive because well-meaning believers who are unfortunately poorly equipped, or merely just too credulous for critical examination are taken in by this crud. It just goes to show that if you say or write ridiculous things with smart-sounding words, throw in some foot notes and a chart or two and add a pseudo bibliography even relatively well educated individuals are likely to get lazy and believe it without examination. Scary. Sad. Lord have mercy. The number of web-sites hosting this pamphlet is a bit frightening, too, and oh-yeah, its been translated into Russian.

Thankfully I've found that a lot of Baptists either aren't aware of it or realize it for what it is.

But of course, lest one thinks I'm suggesting this sort of thing is a purely American or Baptist or [insert group of choice here] I'll remember The Protocols of the Elders of Zion, The Permanent Instruction of the Alta Vendita, and other such lovelies. Of course, as far as I know Trail was produced by an earnest Baptist believer. Conspiracies, conspiracies, conspiracies. If it's not the Catholics, its the Jews, or the Masons, or the Aliens from Googaloo 9... or the OCA.

Ephrem
[OCA, Diocese of the South]

Ever get the feeling that you have missed something here

[/b]</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="verdana, geneva, lucida, 'lucida grande', arial, helvetica, sans-serif">Anhelyna,

I thought about your nick when I posted, but was too lazy to go count and verify whose was longer. Guess I should have - since Ephrem has now modified his and I don't remember exactly what it was

wait - Ephrem Christopher Walborn
hmm - Our Lady's slave of Love

he wins, I think ...

Many years,

Neil

Ephrem,

Great website and lovely family. May God grant all of you many years in health and happiness.

Neil

Thanks! I think I tend to update my website about 3 times for each child -- my youngest is 9 months now, so, yeah, its probably been 8 months since messing with it... too busy messing with reading [arts.tuirgin.com] , linux [debian.org] , or ridding the world of dangerous ASCII charactors [nethack.org] .