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#85508 12/10/03 02:49 PM
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Surely arguing on an internet forum is a voluntary exercise? Whoever does not care to argue is entirely free to refrain from arguing! Many people - myself included - have their "pet causes" and are apt to get a bit heated in presenting them. There are, of course, distinctions. It is one thing to get heated about adding hot water to the chalice; it is something else again to get heated about a proposal to abolish the Bible! Incognitus

#85509 12/10/03 03:07 PM
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Quote
Originally posted by incognitus:
It is one thing to get heated about adding hot water to the chalice;
Heresy! Schism! Uh ... oh, sorry, force of habit. wink wink

#85510 12/10/03 11:19 PM
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Originally posted by Theist Gal:

But 90% of the threads in these forums are complaints about our "modernist" Pope and arguments that the SSPX is really the "true" Church. So I tend to get into a few arguments, er, disagreements! biggrin
Dear TG,

Exactly why I stay on this forum.

Yesterday I got a "Latin Mass" magazine in the mail. Sounded like nice historical nostalgia, but no, it was a bunch of Catholics who've decided that they are the Pope!

I threw that magazine in the trash before I got too angry with those trouble makers.

Paul

#85511 12/11/03 12:43 AM
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Amen, Paul, and good for you. The Latin Mass magazine folks send me a free copy about once a year. Every year it gets worse.
I do think one of the problems on this forum is the tendency among some posters to get personal when they start losing an argument. This was a big disappointment to me when I first started posting; I was expecting something more, I don't know, intelligent. [It should be noted that the offending parties apologized when things calmed down].
However, another problem is the tendency to misinterpret humor, which I have also experienced. Both Mike and his wife Tammy have accused me of hostility when I made comments to other posters [who took no offense] in a playful manner,even when I used smiley faces, which I find distasteful. biggrin ,
I didn't notice anything particularly offensive when people argued with them, so perhaps it is just a matter of touchiness, or on Mike's part, an over-developed sense of chivalry. After all, he is a rassler.

#85512 12/11/03 01:55 AM
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Stephenie Woods daughter of Steve Woods on EWTN, is working on a Catholic ministry for young adults. They have a web site up and running devoted to apologetics and discussion. I think it should be good if I can ever find it. I think it is something like nextwavegeneration.com . I have 5 young adult children all together, and I am hoping to get them interested in it.

My point is I hope there the arguments will be held down. But where there are people there is difference of opinion. Sooo....

Rose

#85513 12/11/03 10:28 AM
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Dear Friends,

Some of the issues that got some of us into hot water of late ultimately had to do with questions concerning the Latin Church and the touchy matter of, even inadvertently, comparing "how Catholic" we Easterners really are.

The Administrator is a man who is deeply formed in Eastern Christian spirituality and I wish we had more like him in the UGCC - but we don't.

And his job here is not an enviable one, all kidding aside (for a moment wink ).

Eastern Christians, Catholic and Orthodox, don't appreciate and don't deserve to be placed on a "how Catholic are you" scale in terms of where they stand on Purgatory, the Immaculate Conception and other issues.

The usefulness of this forum to Latin Catholics and Latinized Eastern Catholics has to do with helping to see the real difference between what is a matter of divine faith - and the Particular theological tradition by which that faith is expressed and celebrated liturgically.

Latin Catholics and Latinized Eastern Catholics sometimes see the two as being one and they are not.

There are Orthodox Christians, often converts, who go the other way in terms of seeing Catholicism and Orthodoxy as being so mutually exclusive that the very idea of an "Orthodox in communion with Rome" is anathema and prefer to see EC's as Roman Catholics imitating Orthodox liturgical forms.

The idea that there is room in the Catholic Church for Orthodox theological traditions within Particular Churches of the East in communion with Rome is strictly verboten and it upsets them. But it shouldn't and, in the very least, respect should be shown to EC's and their traditions and especially their struggles to maintain their own sense of ecclesial identity.

So the Administrator has a difficult job here and his imposition of the internet version of "canonical penances" shouldn't be understood as a "punishment" but as "medicinal" (did we already have a thread on this topic? wink ).

I will admit that when I first crossed swords with our brother, Bob Orthoman, I was put-off and went directly to the Administrator with a "what do I do now?"

The Administrator encouraged me not to give up but to engage Bob and others in debate, even when the debate got heated.

Over time, I got used to some high temperatures . . .

But the Administrator's decision to allow some time for both Bob and LT to reflect on the issues I think I've properly summarized above (but if I haven't, hopefully you know what I mean) is to everyone's benefit. At the same time I hope that we can still have those heated debates - they are welcome, especially during the winter months . . . smile (Enough smileys for you, Coalesco?).

The Administrator in his erudite wisdom gave these issues much more thought than myself or anyone.

This also affords us all an opportunity to reflect on how we speak to one another here.

We should all avoid passing judgement on one another in terms of how Catholic or how Orthodox we are. That is ultimately not what we are about here. We are about respect and open discussion within a courteous framework.

And we should definitely not try to be hypercritical of one another's posts, impute motive and the like.

I regret having spoken critically of Neil's posting style in response to Fr. Deacon Lance and I ask him to forgive me. I won't do that again and I wish I could erase that post.

I honestly did feel that to be the truth, but I should not have said so. I did it, in all sincerity, in response to what I perceived was Neil's unprovoked attack of me and my posting with Bob Orthoman on the Fatima issue that Neil was commenting on. I felt upset and angry as I perceived Neil "has it in" for me for some reason and so I responded the way I did.

Neil didn't need to be hyper-critical of me and I didn't need to return the favour.

I hope that we may all continue to converse in brotherly and sisterly fashion here.

What this Forum does and contributes is something no other really does.

Our humanity does show here sometimes, and I think it is a tribute to the democratic spirit that is truly this forum's mainstay that this does happen.

What we have to share with both Roman Catholics and Orthodox Christians is a lived vision of what a reunited Church of Christ can be.

We EC's live a version of the future in the present.

We love both our Latin and Orthodox brothers and sisters and our vocation is ultimately to see the two of your become one once again.

Alex

#85514 12/11/03 10:38 AM
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Good goin' Alex!

#85515 12/11/03 10:54 AM
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Yes, a well reasoned, balanced commentary about us all.

I agree completely.

Michael

#85516 12/11/03 12:06 PM
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Dear Friends,

Do we spend too much time comparing the Eastern and Western Churches?

I think one of the problems is that the Catholic/Orthodox Churches are 90% Latin. The RCC casts a big shadow.

That is why it is vital to the Church to hear the Gospel according to the East. Without both lungs working we gasp for air. The whole Body of Christ is weakened without the East or West.

My 5-cents (I raised the price on my opinions). wink

Paul

#85517 12/11/03 03:22 PM
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Dear Friends,

Thank you!

And do you see how I respect and esteem the Administrator?! smile

Alex

#85518 12/11/03 03:49 PM
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Dear Paul:

Yeah, I noticed the significant increase!

Anyway, "scalping" has not been a good income generator as it used to be. Must be the prohibitive cost of having an inventory of sharp scalpels. biggrin

AmdG

#85519 12/11/03 03:53 PM
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Dear Alex:

I have often wondered why Melkites and Latins get along well!

Do you? wink

AmdG

#85520 12/11/03 04:38 PM
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Dear Amado,

Has the Latin Church ever had the Battle of Poltava in its calendar? smile

(O.K., Neil, put that cudgel down! Neil!!) smile

(I can be very loveable if given half a chance, you know . . .sniff . . .).

Alex

#85521 12/11/03 07:42 PM
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Praying and asking for prayer
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I'm just sitting back, keeping out of trouble biggrin biggrin

Here are my 2 cents (now I'm sticking my nose out) cool

How about we all examine our motives for being on the boards at all.... confused

Why did we come?

What do we hope to gain or give here?

Most of us are probably here for a reason. I, for one, have a strong desire for unity among Eastern and Western Christians....

With this in mind, I hope to be able to learn more about how other Christians view the Church and the Christian life....

I am eager to NOT make big Western mistakes in what I say and do around my Eastern brothers and sisters.

I want to understand, respect, and enjoy differences in practice and liturgy among the Churches.

And most of all, I pray that we may all have that deep and abiding UNITY IN CHRIST that goes far deeper than culture, time, or place.

These are my ideal thoughts smile

In practicality, I go stumbling around this forum at times, making mistakes,....being a little critical and/or didactic....trying to either apologize or appropriately hold my tongue biggrin

Personally, I like the forum. smile

We aren't identical, why should we be.... uh, oh, I sound didactic, again eek

Unity In Christ


Let us pray for Unity In Christ!
#85522 12/11/03 11:47 PM
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Lord Jesus Christ have mercy on me a sinner.

Unity in Christ,

I like your post.

I'm here to learn about the liturgy, spirituality, theology, and the people of the Eastern Church.

Next, I want to affirm V2 and recent Popes' commitment to end Latinization of the Eastern Churches and encourage the Eastern Churches to develop and flourish according to their own Tradition.

Unity in Christ, you don't sound didactic, Sounds like a little nasal congestion. biggrin

Paul

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