www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology This is a topic about Catholics who try to corrupt the moral teachings of the Church.

Nobody is talking about excluding Jesus' teachings from the Bible. Obviously that is the most important thing to do. But, do you thin k Jesus wants us to ingore issues such as the killing of the most innocent in our society? I don't think so. Let's talk about Nazi Germany. Things probaly would of turned out a lot better if people, including priests spoke out against the Nazis. Let us pretend that everything is ok. Everything is just fantastic. Why don't we go to Church every Sunday (Which obviously we should, because God deserves our worship and without Him we can do nothing) not talk about how we can apply the Gospels to injustices in the world, and go on and live our lives and do nothing to change our surroundings. What a great idea. Let don't bring peace to God's world. Let us not right wrongs. I live in an area where the priests don't speak out against anything, they have no opinions. In fact, a few priests have opionions which differ from the Church that Jesus started and maintains. The people are confused every wich way I look. Nobody is leading them.

Dear seminarian- I hope you are a little more conscientious in your homilies than in your posts; no one is going to listen if you are incomprehensible and foolishly sarcastic.
I share your dismay at the shape of things in the Church today. That said, it is also true, as some have said here, that the homily isn't the best place for moral denunciations, unless delivered with great tenderness. Properly, that should occur in the confessional, also delivered with tenderness and compassion.
One of my favorite priests, from my Latin days, was an old monsignor who would preface every sermon with a heartfelt "my dear people" and then go on to make most of the congregation squirm in their pews.
A younger priest in the same parish, a few years later, just annoyed everyone with his self-righteous denunciations.
I am thinking you are a first year seminarian, with a lot to learn. Slow down, work on your own sanctification, and take it from there.
-Daniel, the former seminarian

Unfortunately DB--the two great commandments I quoted are actually words that Jesus said, as well as the Beatitudes, and the Parable of the Sheep and the Goats. I'm afraid that it's not "peace and justice social Gospel" but actual words from our Lord Himself. I don't hear them taught very often in a homily. Once people can hear and digest these VERY BASICS of Christianity, then maybe they'll understand these other issues when they are expounded on from the ambon. I really don't know what's being preached in the Roman Catholic churches in the USA since I'm a Byzantine Catholic. Are you a Byzantine Catholic?

Good point Incognitus--You should hear some of the conversations that I've been FORCED to have with my children when they've questioned me because of some of the gospel of life issues that they heard preached on in church. Too much information come to mind?

I'm a Catholic first, a Byzantine Catholic second. I used to be a "Roman" Catholic.

I see no distinction between Catholics, regardless of Rite. We all share the same deposit of Faith, and preach the same Gospel message, which is "REPENT AND BELIEVE."

Part of "REPENT AND BELIEVE" is "Go and Sin no more" and equally, "Do unto others as you would have done unto you."

I make no false distinction nor hierarchy of importance between the social gospel and the moral gospel. They are both complimentary and equal in importance.

I am suspect of anyone who raises one above the other, for such is usually the effect of putting a personal agenda above that of the basic Gospel message, which is summarised by both "Repent and Believe, Go and Sin No More," and the Beatitudes.

The deposit of faith is made up of both scripture and tradition. Moral theology is just as much the Word Of God as the scriptural quotes you mention. Read the Letters of Paul too.

And don't try to create a false distinction between the "peace and justice" gospel and the gospel which says, "REPENT and Believe, Go and Sin No More."

That false distinction, I believe, is exactly the topic the poster who started this thread was referring to.

Yes, "an empty stomach has no ears," (I learned that doing missionary work among the poorest of the poor in Haiti) but one cannot stop at feeding the poor or leading them to a superficial/superstitious belief that "Once one accepts Jesus as Personal Lord and Savior, one is saved."

We Catholics are not limited to such a superficial and misleading interpretation of scripture. We know that following Christ means more. It means rejecting sin (implying KNOWING what sin IS!) AND living the social gospel.

I made no distinction at all between any different Gospels. You were the one who first said, "In the Catholic Church in America, one is far more likely to hear the peace and justice social gospel preached (the one you seem to want to hear) than the "Repent (of your SINS, some of which are X Y & Z) and Believe," and "Go and SIN NO MORE" variety." All I said was, "How about priests teaching that we love God with our whole mind and heart and strength? How about priests teaching that we love our neighbor as ourself? How about priests teaching that we feed the hungry, cloth the naked, visit the sick and the prisoners, comfort the mourning, become a peacemaker?" Where is there a distinction between anything in that statement? Doesn't teaching others to love God and our neighbor sum up the whole Gospel message, as well as the law and the prophets?

You also said:

"I'm a Catholic first, a Byzantine Catholic second. I used to be a "Roman" Catholic.

I see no distinction between Catholics, regardless of Rite. We all share the same deposit of Faith, and preach the same Gospel message, which is "REPENT AND BELIEVE."

Part of "REPENT AND BELIEVE" is "Go and Sin no more" and equally, "Do unto others as you would have done unto you."

I make no false distinction nor hierarchy of importance between the social gospel and the moral gospel. They are both complimentary and equal in importance.

I am suspect of anyone who raises one above the other, for such is usually the effect of putting a personal agenda above that of the basic Gospel message, which is summarised by both "Repent and Believe, Go and Sin No More," and the Beatitudes."

I guess that we do see the Gospel, as well as the Church, in two different ways. Repent and believe is fine--but what about those who do or have done that already? And what are they taught after they repent and believe? Believe what? If that's all that is ever heard--there's no moving forward in faith, no growth in that faith or hope or love. I wish you the best in your faith journey in Byzantine Church. And welcome! I hope that you learn all that you can about our spirituality, theology, ritual, and tradition and what makes us different from all the other Catholic Churches.

Daniel
Thanks a whole bunch. I'm glad you calm and can take things with grain of salt. The salt of the earth, meaning Jesus' followers, are suppose to sick and back and hope everything will work out. There is problay a Protestant church down the street that would except you very warmingly. Grow and think abou t what you are saying.

Dear John K.
Thank you for your posting. And may God be with you in attempting to guard your children. Education is excellent, but "there is a time and a place for everything".

with much appreciation,

Incognitus

What are they to repent OF? How do they lead a Holy life if they are not instructed on that which they must avoid and that for which they must repent?

There are three stages of the spiritual life in Christian ascetical & mystical theology.

I suggest reading "The Three Ways of the Spiritual Life" by Reginald Garrigou-Lagrange [ourladyswarriors.org] to understand these stages and the nature of the first stage, the "purgative" stage.

If one does not enter into this purgative way freely and fully, one cannot progress in the spiritual/interior life, and it is in this very first stage that one must recognize their sinfulness and turn away from it.

Here is a noteworthy excerpt:

If one rejects this notion that they must root out all sin from their personal life, substituting instead the good works of a "peace and justice" social gospel, they will never truly grow in Christ.

Thus
Catholics who try to corrupt the moral teachings of the Church emphasizing instead a social gospel run the risk of keeping many souls from really growing in the Lord.

Thanks you Fr. Incognitus--

It's bad enough when a parent has to hide the morning paper, or turn off the nightly news so that children are spared viewing things that they are not ready to know about or able to understand. I would hope that one would not have to do the same thing in church. They grow up too fast as it is, why hurry it along even faster?

Again--you're mis-reading my words. I'll try one last time, very simply:

I would like to hear more during a homily--about Jesus' words that were just chanted in the Gospel.

If that is trying to corrupt the moral teachings of the Church, then I am guilty. You are emphasizing that there is more than one Gospel, a "social" and a "repent and believe."

I tend to do my spiritual reading from Eastern Christian sources, and while I thank you for the link from http://www.ourladyswarriors.org/ this seems to be a Roman Catholic site aim at correcting dissenters and Latin liturgical abuses. Perhaps you can suggest some good and relevant Eastern Christian material to read?

Friends,

It seems to me that the main purpose of the homily, whether based on the Sunday scripture readings in the Roman Catholic Church or the scriptures chanted in the Divine Liturgy cycle in the Byzantine Catholic church, is to explain, reflect upon, and give due emphasis to the scriptures which are a part of that Sunday or daily Liturgical Cycle.

That being said does not mean nothing else is ever said. Because the cycles cover many scriptures and have been chosen carefully by the Church...even though they are not exactly the same each Sunday in the East or West, in total over a period of time they do cover what we need to hear and certainly include many moral teachings.

I think to explain, reflect, and encourage those scriptures and their application is the purpose of the homilies. If this is done well rather than attempts by priests and pastors to simply be stand up comedians or constantly raise money...or preach admonishing their congregations (even though that can be included when needed), it works for me. (Not that I don't appreciate humor) - there must simply be more to what is preached that that. And I am all for sacrifical giving too. A priest who gives a good homily does follow the scriptural cycle. Or, at least, uses it for the theme and basis of his homily.

My 2 cents,

Porter...definitely leaning eastward.

Many regard Catholic moral teaching as simply avoiding evil- don't do this or that. In the Gospel of the Last Judgement, which in the Byzantine lectionary is the Gospel lesson for Meatfare Sunday, the Lord makes clear that the moral law is not only avoiding evil, but also(perhaps even more important) doing good.

Most examinations of conscience focus upon transgressions of "doing evil", not many focus upon those of "avoiding good".

Look, I'm sorry if I offended anyone. And if I directed any negative thoughts to anyone specifically, I apologize. I may come across as some hard liner who would preach this or that. You perception is probaly that I would come down hard on others. I really wouldn't do that. I would preach the Gospel of Jesus Christ and I wouldn't give any graphic homilies when children were present. But I would speak the truth when it was necessary. I am just concerned with the moral decay that is rampant in our society. I still have my beliefs, but that doesn't mean that nobody else isn't correct either.

God Bless