www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology vespers in Byz Cath churches

Personally I find Orthros more enjoyable than Vespers, assuming that both are done well.
Incognitus

That is a hard choice indeed. I think actually I prefer Vespers [with the Kyivan Blazhen Muzh, of course ]. Tranquil light with the sun going down, those wonderful Dogmatika, Psalm 103, etc. etc.

Each to his own taste!
Incognitus

I'm with Diak. The commemoration of the historical cycle of Creation-Fall-Reconcilliation-Redemption at Vespers is, to my humble self, a gorgeous way to end the day.

Yours,

hal

SLAVA ISUSU CHRISTU!

I'm with Incognitus, I like Orthos.

I remember one Orthos service, many years ago, at Mt. Macrina where we were chanting the service as the sun rose over the mountains. A VERY spiritual service indeed....

JMHO

mark

Hal, don't you mean begin the day?

Yes, singing the Great Doxology and the Praises at Matins with the rising sun is also an incredible liturgical experience. "The Theotokos and Mother of the Light, let us magnify in song" as the first shafts of daylight are coming through the windows... I'll keep my Vespers vote, though.

To create an acceptable guideline for abbreviated �cathedral� Matins there is a necessity to dig up what exactly is its historical and theological base and what, added later, can be put away and preserved only for monastic usage. I do not call up the Christian to undertake archeological diggings out, but this is the very case when a kind of painstaking research is really able to let the Byzantine Church out of the liturgical deadlock. The omitting of Vespers and Matins will be inevitably resulted in total collapse of the Tradition. On the other hand, the current Greek practice is not ideal since it simply suggests unreasonable omitting the crucial parts of Matins, like the Psalter and Canon.

The Royal Office before the six psalms could be omitted if such doing were not be too worldly and influenced by the foreign to the Church political fact that most Christians have not kings, at least today. Not bad decision, therefore, would be just shortening the Office, for instance skipping psalms 19 and 20 but saving the Trisagion, troparions, and small litany. Without these elements (Trisagion, Our Father) Matins would be deprived of the traditional beginning peculiar to every Byzantine service.

Then, the six psalms. Obviously, they consist of two parts one of which (perhaps the second) historically was not related to the morning service, so it may be not taken. It would not be a great damage to Matins because, they say, the original structure of an Eastern service was based precisely on three psalms.

Kathismata. We have two ordinary ones, kathisma 17, and poleeleos (some ancient manuscripts suggest performing kathisma 17, and poleeleos at the same Matins without rotating). Thus, four kathismas in total! If we take in account that the Gradual Hymns used to be a part of selected psalms of kathisma 18 the number of kathismas adds up to five! This set of psalms has been obtained historically and seems to be too elaborated. There should be one kathisma of three parts since we agreed that the number of three is historical �backbone�. But which of them? I think the current Gradual Hymns (three antiphons) with their restored three psalms of kathisma 18, rotating in accordance with eight tones, should be substituted for all the four current kathismas. In short, the Great Litany and �God is the Lord� will be followed by three psalms chanted with the three Gradual antiphons and then, immediately, by Prokimenon.

The Gospel, Resurrection Hymn, and Psalm 50 � as usual. But it is necessary to put in morning prayers 9 and 10, now recited secretly during the six psalms. But actually they should be said aloud before the Gospel (between Prokimenon and �Every breath�) and after Psalm 50 (i.e. �Save, o Lord�) respectively.

The crucial problem is to save the Biblical Cants; the Matins Canon of today is deprived of them. The Scriptural verses should be chanted with tropaions but it is all but impossible for �cathedral� service. However, as there are three complete odes at a Lent Matins instead of nine ones (they say that Canon itself emerged from three cants and was enlarged later) we may confine the entire Canon to three odes chanted in their entirety. That is complete Scriptural Odes 8 and 9 and another one depending on a weekday (Ode 1 on Monday etc). It would be also fine to say aloud morning prayer 11 at the Small Litany after Ode 9. It seems to be its historical place.

The Lauds, certainly, should be taken in their entirety with psalms. Then the Great Doxology immediately followed after the Trisagion by the Epistles and Gospel, and the rest part of Liturgy. It would not make sense to repeat the Trisagion two times during combined Matins and Liturgy.

The written above is a kind of my personal project of �cathedral� Matins though I prefer traditional one. What is more, I am afraid that a liturgical reform is too dangerous things, for instance the ill-fated reforms in Russia of 1600s and persecutions of the Old Ritualists. It is like slight touching of a small stone, which creates a huge slide.

Valerius

Dear Diak:

You are absolutely, positively, 100% right. I stand corrected.

Yours,

hal

"Now that we have come to the setting of the sun"

Psalm 104/103

Is it badgers or mountain goats or deer????
The Melkites and Douay-Rheims say a word for deer.
The OCA says badgers
The King James has a word for mountain goats.

This is important. Is the OCA big in Wisconsin. lol

It's critters.

Or varmints south of the Mason-Dixon line.

BADGERS! [weebls-stuff.com]

End of story.

Dave

I always thought it was conies.
Incognitus

Would someone who has been to OL Perpetual Help pilgrimage at Uniontown over Labor Day please tell me if all of these services will be offered there? What is a typical schedule of events? I am trying to arrange to go, but I want to know what to expect, being a newbie.

Will there be other talks? Mainly liturgy and prayer? Other?

Thanks for your valued information.

In the Theotokos,

Tammy

That clarifies it. Conies errr, What are conies??, deer or mountain goats? King James says mountain goats, Douay-Rheims says deer. Who inspired the heretical Protestants with GOATS??? Hmmmmmm as the "Church Lady" on SNL would say. lol