www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology The Big One

There were a lot of might big waves on Lake Superior before the Edmond Fitzgerald went down. Some think that it managed to survive the rough waters until that "big one" hit it. Then it gave up its crew for burial at the bottom of the lake.

Another ore boat off the shore of SE Asia went dead-head into a horrible monsoon. Water found a way into the boat via openings up front. It began to slowly sink as it rode the waves. Then it hit the "big one" and sunk to the bottom of the ocean instantaneously, smashing into thousands of pieces as it hit the ocean floor.

Not nice images to reflect on ...

With an increasing amount of return to Latinizations, the Greek Catholic Church in the U.S. is entering upon rougher seas. I read advertisements in questionable newspapers about rosary being prayed before each liturgy on Sunday in our newer parishes. Promotions of visionaries. Priests wanting to undo every change done by former bishops so as to look and feel like post-Tridentine Greek Catholics. Half of our archeparchy still maintaing a Latin Tridentine High Mass look. Innovative ministries instituted with episcopal permission while traditional and time-tested ministries go ignored. A much firmer resolution to obey silly rules regarding married priests enforced by absentee and thoughtless pencil-pushing folks thousands of miles away. Sappy music being intoduced into our liturgies, especially weddings. The realizataion that years of ECF isn't paying off since the older folk are the ones often paying the bills. A deplorable number of seminarians to fill the void left by retiring, ill, and dead pastors. An increasing vocation contribution rate (VCR) to Orthodox jurisdictions. Plans of closing churches are more common than opening new ones. 50% drop in membership since the mid-50's. Greek Catholic branches of Latin religious orders closing up.

What will be considered the "big one" that will be considered too much?

Stanging from afar in a different land. Gazing over the hills and valleys; dreaming about the former place that once was. In Exile, now. What glory it once was, if it ever was, is now only a shadow of its former glory. Rubble.

Or is the time ripe for a new Pentecost, the third Great Awakening? Who will lead us into the land? Will there be any leaders? Who will turn the tables of the money-changers? Will prophets continue to be killed by their own?

In the distance, under the great Maple tree, stands three people: Toth, Chornak, and Maria Teresa. They are whispering something between themselves. A storm looks like it is rising on the horizon. Occasionally, one of them points a finger in the direction of the community as their discussion gets intense. The community lies in the path of the storm. A church's onion dome can be seen in the middle of the community glistening in the afternoon light. What are they saying? Are they pointing toward the oncoming storm on the horizon or at the community that lies in its wake? Do they look worried, amused, secure, scared, upset? Now and then they shake their heads. Can you see them? Are they nodding their heads or wagging them? What do you think?

"Does anyone know where the love of God goes
when the waves turn the minutes to hours? "

Joe Thur

Slava Isusu Christu!

What an interesting spin...Hmmm...it's kind of still processing....but anyway I think what is needed is a national media campaign sponsored in part by the NCCB and our Metropolia to interest people in our Eastern Catholic Faith. I mean we are in a media oriented society and we are in desperate need of representation. I mean if we don't do PR who the heck is going to know we exist. I mean who would know the Mormons, a strange sect of Masonic pseudo-Christians, existed if it were not for a massive media/missionary campaign. At least they have enough common sense to realize that if you don't go out an actively recruit people and put out a positive public image you will only get a trickle of membership. Hey if we need to send off every young Byzantine Catholic to do missionary work for 2 or three years armed with a New American Bible, the Philokalia, Ikons, samples of incense and holy water and dressed to the hilt in suits and Dock Martens then so be it! Hey what could it hurt!? If we keep this ghetto mentality we will die out. Hey we seem to forget that if we die out the Catholic Church will still be around.

We are living in an age where the ethno-centric and academic priest is passe'...We are living in the age of the MISSIONARY PRIEST...and every priest in our Metropolia from the next group of ordinands on needs to be trained as a missionary, not as some sedentary parish priest waiting for his overrated retirement. We are living in a post-post-Modern American Society who cannot understand the rudiments of Christian doctrine let alone the complexities of Byzantine theology and praxis...that is why in order for our Church to grow we must change and reverse our previous paradigm about evangelization. I am ready with all of the people of our Church to be called upon to do the will of God and do mission work. If Vladyka says go I am on the first plane and you can quote me on that.

Just some thoughts from a Chief Sinner.

Sincerely in Christ,


Robert

"There were a lot of might big waves on Lake Superior before the Edmond Fitzgerald went down. Some think that it managed to survive the rough waters until that "big one" hit it. Then it gave up its crew for burial at the bottom of the lake.

Another ore boat off the shore of SE Asia went dead-head into a horrible monsoon. Water found a way into the boat via openings up front. It began to slowly sink as it rode the waves. Then it hit the "big one" and sunk to the bottom of the ocean instantaneously, smashing into thousands of pieces as it hit the ocean floor."

Well, along with that set of images, one might with spiritual profit consider what happened to another boat: the Mary Ellen Carter (cf. the Clancy Brothers song of the same name). Incognitus

Ok, Incognitus,
I do remember the song about Edmond Fitzgerald going down on its last run of the season.
And there have been any number of ships lost in Asia.
I guess I never heard (or have forgotten) the story of the Mary Ellen Carter.
Please be so kind as to send a link, or better, just post the lyrics of that Clancy Brothers song of the same name.All the best!
Reader Joe

Robert,

Should that "campaign" be focused inside the Metropolia first?

Incognitus,

Thank you for the other song name. But this thread isn't really about songs. What do you think Maria Theresa, Chorniak, and Toth were discussing?

Joe

The Mary Ellen Carter is a Stan Rogers song, not the Clancy Brothers just to clarify.

Joe, I see Metropolitan Sheptytsky, Leonid Federov and Theodore Romzha and hear a different song.

At first when I read this article I had a flashback to a couple of Sanford and Son episodes, "It's the big one, Elizabeth, I'm comin' to join you".

Joe, some of us are still on the bilge pumps and not giving up. I was at the consecration of a new Greek Catholic bishop in June at which there was no filioque and he was vested in the klobuk and mantiyas.

Our Patriarch is making great strides in the restoration of the church and the Kyivan Patriarchate. We have ordained married priests within the last 2 years in the US. Look at parishes like St. Elias. New traditional Studite monasteries in Michigan, California and Canada.

It's far from over for Greek Catholics. But your points make it evident (to me at least) of the need to move away from a watered-down modern Americanized church to a unified Kyivan Patriarchate. I'm not talking about liturgical language at all as it is secondary but rather the revitalization, restoration and recapturing of a heritage.

The separation of the churches after the death of Bishop Ortynsky has done no good other than to divide and weaken. And to leave one part of the division as a small sui iuris church completely dependent on Rome and the Eastern Congregation and thus completely prey to all of the things you have described including the worst of Western culture. Not to deny the other side of that unfortunate division hasn't had its problems, but in the big picture it certainly seems to be a healthier organ with a unifying rally point around its Patriarch.

Again three I see on the horizon are Metropolitan Sheptytsky, Leonid Federov, and Theodore Romzha. United in vision, tradition, cause, and in the vision of a united Kyivan Church. Except the song I hear is "The Battle of New Orleans" with the insertion of "old Blazhey" instead of Old Hickory.

And missions and evangelism are the key. New missions, from scratch, faithful to the heritage and tradition. Look at St. Elias. Archpriest Roman stared with Vespers in his living room and Divine Liturgy in a gym. Look at what it is now. Some of the older parishes are difficult situations now, latinized and internally polarized. But the Romans and Orthodox also have their problem parishes. We aren't alone in that category. Sometimes it makes more sense to build a new house than pouring time and money into the old one.

Diak,

Was a "United Kyiven Church" the topic that was being discussed between Maria Theresa, Chorniak, and Toth?

I was hoping that a discussion can be made on the Ruthenian Metropolia, not the long arms of the Sheptitsky Inst. or someone's dream about subjecting the Ruthenian Metropolia to Kiev.

I look to the left and I look to the left and I look inside, and I see everyone wanting to extinguish our church.

Joe

You forgot to look to the right.

In all seriousness, look up to Christ--He does not want to extinguish your Church. But the Ruthenian Church may have to die and rise just like Christ Himself--the Divine exemplar.

But I have faith in the Ruthenians as long as Joe Thur is around.

A buddy of mine in the Ruthenian Church is concerned as well--but he's escaped into a half-Melkite, half-Tridentine hybrid spiritual life. (NOT that the Melkite parish is half-Tridentine , but my friend is half-Tridentine).

I should tell him to go become a married Ruthenian priest. He'd just have to find a wife first .

Chin up, Mr. Thur.

LatinTrad

>>>What do you think Maria Theresa, Chorniak, and Toth were discussing?<<<

Hmmmm. This is a tough one. I think Maria Theresa was pointing to the iceberg ahead, knowing there was much more under the surface than could be seen from above. Chorniak was pointing to the prideful captains, who thought the ship was unsinkable, therefore ignored the warning signs. Toth was pointing to the Carpathia in the distance, who didn't respond right away, but eventually rescued all of the paasengers that were fortunate enough to stay alive.

Sam

"With an increasing amount of return to Latinizations, the Greek Catholic Church in the U.S. is entering upon rougher seas. I read advertisements in questionable newspapers about rosary being prayed before each liturgy on Sunday in our newer parishes. Promotions of visionaries."

Did I miss something? Where is all this happening? I thank God we have been able to illiminate even the proposal of such things at our Parish. As more of the "baby boomers" retire, I think this attitude will abate. I haven't met many younger Byzantines who tollerate such things. I don't think we should negate the younger generation and their zeal for our Faith.
Maybe the storm is the struggle we'll have to fulfill the spiritual needs of all the Greek Catholics returning to their roots. The glory of our Eastern Faith cannot be hidden no matter how many Western devotions (good or bad) you throw at them.


Dmitri

It amazes me that some of what you say is happening. I'm here in CT, with a moribund parish in Meriden, somewhat still living ones in Danbury and Trumbull, and mine and Brideport that are in between the two, so I can't really say what's going on, especially in the holyland of PA & OH. But in fact, if these things you say are happening, everyone should just call it a day and go home. Those inclined to remain somewhat eastern, go to the nearest Orthodox church, and the rest to the nearest RC. Is the problem that there are too many RC "converts" in our churches? Are there too many "latinized" cradle borns still remaining? Is it that the priests still feel the need to compete with the RC church down the street rather than the Orthodox church down the street? Are there too many bi-ritual priests serving? (Although, what would the alternative be?) There is no strong leadership it appears. No one is even making an appeal for married men to come forward for ordination, let alone ordaining them. Deacons are wonderful, but ours seem to be "permanent" ones, like in the Latin rite.

Speaking for my own parish, it can't be the "ethnic" thing that's turning folks off, other than the monthly kolachi and pirohi sales, there ain't nothing ethnic going on. We've been trying but to no avail. We've hosted concerts that have packed the church by the Yale Russian Chorus and Lyra (an ensemble from St. Petersburg). We've included a history of the church and service times, website, phone #'s, a listing of upcoming events and holydays, in the programs and even gave personal appeals to "come and see" by the pastor, to no avail. Our choir has sung out in the community at different functions, we have our "bazaar" and a year huge tag sale that bring in tons of people, especially families of parishioners or former parishioners, yet we can't get them to re-join, or even come on a Sunday once! Christmas is down right depressing, because between folks who go away to distant family and those that "go to church" with their families to the RC churches, there is literally almost no one there. We get more people to St. Basil's on Holy Saturday than on Christmas, but then they're there to get their food blessed!

I think that Met. Chornock and Fr. Toth, are looking and thinking, "If they had only joined us!" I think that Her Imperial Highness, Maria Teresia, is watching the storm in dismay. The view in CT is pretty bleak. All the parishes have screens, that ain't the answer. I don't believe that any of them has "low mass" on a Sunday (or Saturday). So what is the answer? I still say that it has to come from the top down, showing the way to go and leading by example. I don't see any of that. I'm not criticising the bishops and I don't want to be a doom-sayer. I'm being brutally honest and calling it as I see it in my own area. I'm just a layman. I do alot for my church, and yes, I'm a RC "convert," but I didn't come in with my own agenda. I help in whatever way I can, and do more than my share of work. I try to be one that leads by example, but there's no one following. I found a wonderful "family" in my parish, a spirituality that I think was laying dormant in my soul, waiting to come alive. But it's all fading. So many have died or moved away to live with family or gone to a "home." We don't have the rosary anymore, because those who use to pray it have died or are gone! Isn't that great? Got rid of that latinization. Our last "pastor" prophesied that in 10 years, we wouldn't be there. I discounted him then, for many reasons, but now, almost two years after he's gone, I'm starting to believe him. Sorry, folks...

So Joe, from my perspective, I don't see it being good. And the three on the hill are not harbingers of a "Second Spring."

Thank you, Dmitri, for some positive thoughts which seem to be devoid on this thread.

Joe, you still don't seem to fathom the depth of the injury of division nor the possibilities of healing those. Fractured and small is difficult to work with. You brought up the long arms of the Sheptytsky Institute" and all that, not me. By the way, there have been Ruthenian priests who taught there as well.

You asked for thoughts and I gave those. Frankly your gloom and despair posts are getting tedious as are your baseless allegations of subjugation. I was suggesting a proposed way ecclesially out of the lamentations you so thickly applied here. Give an answer, and get a kick in the teeth.

And since I assist the Ruthenian Eparchy also, I take offense that you would insinuate such a narrow minded and exclusive view. You can take that up with Bishop John (Kudrick) if you like. I led Typika in a priestless parish of his for six months before they had a priest.

Had I really felt as you insinuate why would I help the poor, helpless, misguided Ruthenians? Ask anyone at that parish if the term "Ukrainian" ever came up while I was leading the service with the exception of my own personal introduction the first time.

Maria Theresa supported the Greek Catholic Church. She didn't make distinctions between "sui iuris" churches. Bishop Ortynsky through permission from St. Pius X ordained married men. We separated, unfortunately partly due to our own internal divisions. Where is the BCC now? Where are the married priestly candidates now? Can you honestly say it is stronger? Obviously not from your lamentations above. Is unity such a bad thing?

You can go tell Abbot Nicholas at Holy Transfiguration Skete in Michigan, who is a Black Protestant convert and now abbot at an all-English Ukrainian Catholic monastery which is growing about your ideas of subjugation. He can tell you something about subjugation.

I am open at this point to solutions, are you? Any better ideas?

You are right, I failed to look to my other left.

Joe

Pirohi recipes.

Ss. Cyril and Methodius, Apostles of the Slavs, pray to God for us!

Sometimes, leadership, not unity, is more powerful.

Joe