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Ss. Cyril and Methodius, Apostles of the Slavs, pray to God for us!

Why should the Ruthenian church be placed under the Kievan Patriarchate?

Sometimes, leadership, not unity, is more powerful.

Joe

Was St. Elias founded because there was a need in that geographical area, or because Fr. Roman thought "we can do it better"? Perhaps that's the kind of thinking that the Pittsburgh Metropolia needs now. Let the old Tridentine wannabe parishes expire; let those who can "do it better" start over... Trouble is, how do you get the bishop to go along with that?

Lemko R,

What can we do better?

Joe

Joe, you still haven't addressed most of my points nor my final questions. I am open, are you? Propose away, I am listening.

And don't bring up that Kyivan subjugation nonsense when I have pointed out that the UGCC has a black abbot at a traditional Byzantine monastery who is as Ukrainian as I am Nigerian. You completely glossed over that. He can tell you about subjugation growing up in the 1950s and 1960s as a black. The real thing, not talk. And leadership without unity is really quite a dead end. We are all in North America. Can we not get together on something?

We still seem to want to back ourselves into the old getto corners. Which is partly which got us to this point in the first place. I don't think either Leonid Federov (Russian) or Theodore Romzha (Rusyn) ever considered themselves dupes or members of some larger Ukrainian conspiracy while being faithful Greek Catholic martyrs and faithful to Metropolitan Sheptytsky, who by the way is responsible for YOUR liturgical rescension also which according to your opening posts seems to be ignored today in favor of latinizations and liberalizations.

Again, is unity such a bad thing? Do you have any better ecclesiastical framework proposed to work under which will guard and protect our Greek Catholic liturgical and spiritual heritage? According to your intro post by your own admission it ain't happening with the Ruthenians, with which itself I would to some extent disagree with.

I organized, taught and led Saturday night Vespers two weeks ago at a Ruthenian parish which had never seen that service outside of a smattering of Presanctified and Plashchanytsia. It will become a regular occurrance at that particular parish. You want help to fix the problem or have those trying to help run off? You lament the problems, but throw mud at a second when someone gives you some suggestions to help.

I thought you were above the polemic and concerned about solutions, Joe. Again, I am open, you?

Lemko, I think Bishop John might be that person you speak of. I am seeing good things happen in that Eparchy, one step at a time. But are there those who are willing to give him a chance? I'm not sure considering the content of this thread.

It seems Lemko got my suggestion for revitalization:

Diak,

So, it is a restructuring issue. Don't we already have people in place to protect our heritage? Your solution indirectly affirms some need to induce leadership where it is considered lacking because under our own devices we are sitting ducks.

Joe

Joe, I'm just giving thoughts here. In terms of lacking leadership I'll remind you that the original questioning of the leadership came from you. According to your entry post, those people you say are not protecting that heritage.

If, as you indicate, the hierarchy is not doing its job in leadership (because they couldn't possibly be if the problems you indicate are present), as ultimately they are responsible (you would agree with that, wouldn't you?), in the corporate world restructuring is exactly what is done when administration (structure) and leadership is lacking.

The Mary Ellen Carter is on a Clancy Brothers CD I have - but they often sing (or sang) songs composed by others. If anyone has the lyrics, I'd be grateful for them. Thanks! Incognitus

Incognitus, you can get it at http://stevebriggs.superb.net/stanrogers/songs/mec-sng.html

And I agree with you, the 'rise again' leaves a much more hopeful conclusion to it if we are going to use it as an ecclesiastical metaphor than the "Edmund Fitzgerald". Hey wait a minute, both of these songs are written and sung by Canadians...

Dear Diak, thanks for the lyrics. I tried playing the introduction and decided I prefer the Makem/Clancy style! I remember that the ship was, in fact, real and so were the men who got the ship out of the water and back in working condition.
If you want an American song about a ship, try the "Good Reuben James", from WWII.
Thanks again. Incognitus

I think some of the problem might be from both groups, not to mention the pastors and bishops that allow these things to happen. Our pastor is very faithful to keeping the latinizations out, no matter who complains. We have lost RC's and cradle borns because of this. I can understand why the older cradle borns would be having a hard time...I didn't do to well when the VCII liturgical changes hit, and I was a kid back then, I can imagine how it would feel to be in your forties, fifties, maybe older and have changes made to every thing you are used to...but the RC converts I just don't get. For the past year and a half my family has struggled to learn what it means to be Byzantine Catholic...we left behind the rosaries, I got used to standing for the Communion prayers,(actually, it came easier, which is wierd, since I revolted against it in the RC...in the BC it felt natural), heck, I even got used to leaving that one little line out of the Creed that caused all those problems ...okay, I will stop patting myself on the back....my point is that I don't get why so many RC's who come over want to change the BC around. And when ever I ask the RC's in my own parish about it, they give me a lecture about turning against the RC, or tell me that I am contributing to making visiting RC's feel unwelcome, or mention that since I am niether Ukranian, nor Ruthenian, I am not really BC, no matter what type of letter I write to the Bishop...

Personally, I like the Greek Catholic Church just the way it is, and even though I am not cradle born, nor an ethnic, I plan on fighting back with whatever weapons I have, even if it's just prayer and fasting. I refuse to lay down and let that wave go over me.

Joe,

This seems to weigh heavy on your heart.Talk to Bishop John.Perhaps that will give you peace of heart. All that each of us can do is give our best to the Church, set a good example (I know you and your family already do)and leave the rest to God.If a person's Parish closes and they have done these things at least they can be at peace knowing they did all they could.Then,take your best and put it to use at another Church. Ultimately if our Church is to survive it is in the hands of the Holy Spirit.


Nicky's Baba

Glory to Jesus Christ!

Gee, I am moving east as fast as my big fat feet can carry me and I see all this tragedy brewing, it makes one pause.

But only for a moment. From where I am things are getting better every day. I am delighted with my new-found home in the Byzantine Catholic church. I pray every night for my parish, pastor and eparchy. I love the BC church, I am so happy I could be two people!

I'm not naive, I know there are problems all over, especially in hard coal country. I visit some local BC and UC churches where I live and all I see are gray hairs (like me), where are the kids? The first thing I want to do is talk the priest into helping me sneak in some night and unscrew the kneelers. But of course that's a silly thought because that's how the parish wants it, so I leave and I don't go back.

I was really in search mode when I found the BC. The reason I picked the parish I did was because they did the Liturgy in English very well, and they did NOT do the rosary! Believe it, there are plenty of others out there just like me.

I know there is hope for the church, the parish I belong to is growing. The congregation is talented and devoted. People everywhere really need and want what we as Eastern Catholics have to offer. I am very lucky and I know it.

Let's not throw in the towel yet.

God bless you all
Michael

O, Canada! The land of sunken ships?

Is this why Metropolitan Stefan in Philadelphia is a Canadian? :rolleyes:

I think that one important aspect has been overlooked. Parishes seem to grow and flourish when the priest liturgizes well, but also when the priest is an outgoing, friendly individual who enjoys being with "his" people. And they, in turn, enjoy being with him and the others in the community.

It seems that some parishes survive because there is a core group of people who work together happily, whether cleaning the church, baking or cooking stuff, or having kobassi and beer and watching a game on TV at the parish hall/center, as well as participating in divine services. It works better when the priest is around, but even if he is not, the parish still survives as community. But it probably won't grow.

I think that the BC Church has suffered because we don't have enough priests (well, DUH!), but also because we are not attracting men who are psychologically free enough to be "attractive" to others but who convert themselves into whatever "image" of priest they believe is required. Instead of recognizing that it is the "man" who receives Holy Orders, it think that there is a prevalent mindset that "becoming a priest" means something like 'playing a role' and perpetually 'getting into character'.

This dichotomy would be real hard on an individual, and I suspect it has something to do with people and priests leading double lives.

When the priests were married, they had an insurance policy against this, i.e., 'she who must be obeyed' (with apologies to Rumphole of the Bailey).

St. Paul's dictum about a priest being a man chosen from among the people to serve the people has become secondary to the understanding that priests assume a pre-cast role in an ecclesiastical production. It's service to God's people that is paramount. And it doesn't/shouldn't really matter if he's Ukrainian, Nigerian or even (gasp!) Anglo-Irish.

Blessings!