www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology My First Jazz? Mass

Friends,

Before I write of this experience we had on Sunday please know that I love religious music(all kinds), classical music, and a good jazz concert or festival. I play the organ myself and my playing is not limited to religious and/or church music.

We couldn't make it to the Byzantine parish we sometimes attend last Sunday. We live a 100 miles round trip drive from there, and after house sitting our daughter's place we decided to save time by stopping for Sunday morning Liturgy at a Roman Catholic Church near the highway on our way home. We had never visited this church before but knew it was a new church and a congregation made up mostly of people who lived on the West side of town.(suburban) The priests who serve there also serve in the downtown parish. This large church is actually an outreach of that even larger urban parish.

I need to back up here and share that for most of our lives, which do make up many years, we have been Roman Catholics. Generally we have experienced and accepted the liturgical changes which came after Vatican II. pretty well. We are long passed longing for the way it was or the traditional Latin mass we used to know and love. We attend the Byzantine parish when we are able to get there, just because we like it there and find the Divine Liturgy to be worshipfull and wonderful for us. Because of all that I came aboard this forum four months ago to learn more about Eastern Christianity and especially the Byzantine viewpoint. Having said all of that - my story continues.

Along with a lively choir there was almost a full band up front next to where the Liturgy would take place. There were no statues in the church, only one cross with a figure of Christ painted on it in semi-icon style(actually liked that), no stained glass windows, but one huge window behind the altar which loomed skyward and overlooked a beautiful and gigantic tree. Hanging about 30 feet above us from large oak beams were two large tapestry banners with nothing printed on them. There were no kneelers. I could barely make out the tiny stations of the cross along the walls to our left. The window to the kitchen was to our right and the coffee smelled good! The people were friendly and the pastor had greeted us as we entered the church. We had arrived twenty minutes early. Actually at first glance except for the priest's vestments I could have thought maybe we had ended up in a contemporay non-Catholic church. We sat and waited as the people filed in and the 'band' warmed up.

During the Liturgy the band-orchester did play complete with drums, strings, piano, flute, keyboard, electric guitar, and saxaphone --all with choir accompaniment. And, much to my surprise in some of the hymns the saxaphone took the lead. The sax player was excellent. I thought that this would have made a fine jazz concert as I whispered to my husband, "Is this the jazz mass?"

The saxaphone lead continued intermittantly during the service. Now, as much as I love jazz I gradually found the novelty of it in this setting wearing off. I had difficulty worshipping, focusing, and concentrating. Things did quiet down at communion time(thank you, God) with only a hymn sung without the participation of the sax.

Sure don't want to offend any folks here and certainly not saxaphone players when I ask - Do you think this is an example of possibly a wave of the future in the Roman Catholic Liturgy, a passing fad, or a one time thing? Will the band continue to play on??

I am just not with this and don't plan on getting on the 'band wagon' so to speak. I am wondering how many people at that particular Liturgy might have felt the same way. What do you think?

Blessings to all,

Mary Jo aka Porter... about this...

Mary Jo,

My guess is that it isn't the "wave of the future" because if'n the sax player was doin' a "soundtrack" for the Mass, I am fairly certain I have read that the Church looks on that sort of thing as an abuse.

Sounds "interesting."

I've had the experience more than once that after I go to a particular Mass (usually like you, in an unfamiliar place) I really feel like I need to go to church afterwards....

Cheers,

Sharon

Yes, that is exactly how I felt. Thanks, Sharon.

Gratefully,

Mary Jo

Hey Mary Jo,

I was reading on another forum where they were having a fit about the same thing. I don't know the name of the document, but I guess it says something like the organ is the preferred instrument to be used during worship. And the other is to be used with the permission of the ordinary I think.

I would have had a hard time there too!

Be at peace!
Pani Rose

This sounds to me more like of a stage show than a Liturgy. What a shame that the Mass has come to this. I guess this is what the folks want and see nothing wrong in it. This is relativism and I guess the west has to live with it.

JoeS

Joe, with respect, that's a bit unfair. Liturgical abuses tend to be the province of a specific church, or *sigh* a specific diocese. It is by no means indicative of the state of affairs in the RC Church as a whole, any more than a recited liturgy at one of our parishes is indicative of the state of affairs in the Eastern Church.

Sharon

Sharon and Joe,

I think Sharon is correct here. This is certainly not something I have seen before(not like the guitar masses of the 70's) and not something presently indicative of the R.C. church as a whole.

Blessings and thanks for wading through my rhetoric.


Mary Jo

Unfortunately, there are a lot of parishes (at least in Florida) with combos that certainly do not meet the requirement for sacred music set out in the GIRM. Also, putting the musicians in the front to perform for the people rather than in a loft in back to support the singing of the people speaks for itself, imho.

Actually the entire Church, East & West, did fine without any musical instruments whatsoever for the first 1100 years or so. The first organ in Italy was thrown out of the church.

I play piano frequently at work and have played organ, and regrettably piano, at church (RC), but am glad to be attending every Sunday a Byzantine church. It is so much easier to sing along without the distraction of instruments.

(If you want to really experience good singing by regular people, visit a conservative Mennonite church, with the women on the left singing soprano and alto and the men on the right singing tenor and bass, with just a song leader giving the pitch, often from his pew. They do much better than the choirs of other protestant groups. -- just an indication that musical instruments do not really aid the singing at all)

Porter (actual name)

I do believe that when compared to the instructions somewhere in the GIRM or related documents this does technically constitute "liturgical abuse". However, if the Bishop says it's OK, then AFAIK it's 100% OK.

As one who has been privileged(?) to hear/sing exclusively Gregorian Chant or Sacred Polyphony at [canonical] Roman Masses under both the 1962 and 1970 missals for at least the past year,
I really don't have a problem with this kind of thing. If this is "what the people [or a specific group of musicians, liturgists, and their fans] want", then fine for me. I may question the sacredness behind it, and it's definitely not my cup of tea, but I'd rather not raise a fuss about it.

What I don't like is when it holds a monopoly in Parish music, and especially when it's accompanied by silly architecture, celebrant histrionics, and ersatz homilies. I've seen this before, and am glad I don't have to deal with it.

I think that, if some in the parish want this, the pastor should restrict it to one mass a sunday, and have a different mass include at least a simple program of Gregorian Chant. If licit, I also think it would be a good idea to warn people about this; maybe we could follow the local UMC church with "traditional" and "contemporary" worship.

LV

My second-hand understanding is that this sort of thing is common. I know Frank Schaeffer complained about this bitterly in his criticisms of Roman Catholicisim and was part of the reason he went Eastern Orthodox instead of Roman Catholic.

I will note that it sounds to me like the RC church is getting into an area that has plagued Protestantism for the past 20 or 30 years, namely creating an envrionment that encourages a consumer mentality toward worship.

If worship is uniform, or closely so, the members committed to a particular group (such as RC) will see the services as basically equal. So in terms of worship, going to one parish is as suitable as attending another parish. If worship styles differ dramatically, then this is not so. Suddenly, a person is faced with a menu of options - go to a nearby jazz service, a farther away traditional service, an entertaining circus service (I have seen newspaper reports of a Washington DC RC church that had clowns serve mass along with other elements of a circus on a "family day"), or whatever. Worship becomes a consumer product, which I don't think is healthy for the church.

Diverse styles tend to build resentment in the congregation. People who don't like a particular form of service tend to be distracted and resentful of it while it is happening, which harms worship. I think this was indicated by was of this other posters.

Anyway, Protestant churches have been faced with this for what seems like a long time. In the Protestant world, this is know as the "worship wars," because it causes such strife. Everyone has their own private opinion of how things should be. There is alot of disorder and confusion about worship. I hope that you guys can avoid this unfortunate situation.

Scott

Yes, I think it will be the "Mass of the future" for a very long time. Look how folk music is still being used in RC Masses..40 years later.

A local Preby church has a "Jazz Vespers" on Sat. nights.

If you want a hoot, rent "A Mighty Wind", a mocumentary on the folk movement. There is a song in the movie called "A Kiss at the End of a Rainbow". It sounds like a RC Communion hymn!!!

Dear Friends,

I know nothing about music, but at New Orleans they have jazz funerals and use it in other liturgical celebrations, including in the translation of the relics of Bl. Francix Xavier Seelos C.Ss.R. after he was beatified.

It's not my cup of tea, but I see nothing irreverent about it.

I've grown to love New Orleans - and all that jazz . . .

Alex

I am a Byzantine Catholic, with a degree in music, and am also an organist in a RC Church. The 4 Sunday morning masses which I play for are traditional. There is a Sunday evening mass which is folk music. Of course, after I spend 7 hours at the church Sunday morning, I never come back for the folk mass in the evening. But I think I do know a little about music, and here's the problem I have with the jazz/folk/contemporary/etc. masses. It's called the loss of the sense of the sacred. I believe that when you walk into the church, it should be in a sense other-worldly. The music and liturgy should not repeat what is in the secular world, but should be obviously different and have a sacred character. I think far too many Catholics can no longer tell the difference between what is secular and what is sacred. Unfortunately, too many are as equally confused about doctrine as music. Is there a link between secularization of the liturgy and secularization of perceived doctrine?

Dear byzanTN,

So you are saying some parishes need to jazz things up if they are to maintain the sense of the sacred?

If so, I agree . . .

Alex

Hi everyone,

I had hoped for a lively discussion and diverse viewpoints to ponder and that is what is here. Thanks for 'all of that jazz' so far.

Interesting play of words on "jazz", "jazzed up". LOL. Humor appreciated but not taken seriously regarding the topic.

As I shared I am also a jazz lover. But, nonetheless, I hope this is not the wave of the future and am glad this particular parish is one we were only visiting. I prefer the reverent atmosphere of our Byzantine Catholic Church and the Divine Liturgy and seriously doubt whether they will be incorporating Jazz music.(not in my lifetime) Also there was a big different between this service and the guitar/folk masses we have experienced in the past. The choir as I mentioned as 'accompaniment' really were very much in the background of a saxaphone lead. You could hardly hear them or the people singing. I don't think there are 'worship wars' yet....but maybe it will be coming...and in this particular parish there may be feedback from the congregation, so perhaps this is only a temporary thing. Hope so...

Blessings,

Mary Jo