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I may have asked this before, I can't seem to remember.

Does anyone out there have any advice as to how I can go about learning some Church Slavonic?

I would like to learn some so that I am not so lost when I hear it when I visit Pittsburgh.


In Christ,
David

David,

I am at work so i can't do all the necessary research. But here are some tips:

1) For liturgical Slavonic, there is a "Church Slavonic E-Tutor" available for download online.

2) If you really want to learn OCS, do a search using a library book search tool that employs OCLC, the American book catalogue database. If your library doesn't have it, try using the net. There are approximately 4 books that teach you Slavonic (the other 30 or so out there deal with highly complex grammatical issues). Then, take the title, author, ISBN, etc. info to your librarian and request it via interlibrary loan. They will explain how this works. Usually takes 3-4 weeks.

In Christ,

anastasios

David,

I don't know how to read Slavonic, so the only way I could learn parts of the Divine Liturgy was to find it phonetically written out for English speakers. The best thing I have found so far is the booklet that comes with a 2-CD set of the entire Divine Liturgy by Rachmaninoff. I have been able to phonetically memorize a lot of it. There are even accent marks to know where to stress the words.

If this sounds like something you might be interested in, you can find the CD set at:

Musica Russica - www.musicarussica.com [musicarussica.com]
Phone: 1-800-326-3132
Item number: A45
Artist: Kansas City Chorale
Price: 18.98

Here is an example, (without the accent marks and oher phonetic markings of course):

Presviatuyu, prechistuyu, preblagoslovennuyu, slavnuyu Vladichitsu nashu Bogoroditsu i Prisnodevu Mariyu, so fsemi sviatimi pomianuvshe, sami sebe, i drug druga, i ves zhivot nash Hristu Bogu predadim.

That was where the Deacon says (Remembering our most holy, most pure, most blessed and glorious Lady Theotokos, etc,,,)

If you can read that without any trouble, you will like the whole thing!

A practical solution for many ... but such a pity, in a way, to me because Slavonic is so, well, *visually* attractive, particularly if you can get your hands on a two-color (black/red) prayerbook with traditional Slavonic typeface.

Slava Teb'i, Boze nas, slava Teb'i

I recomment the English/Slavonic prayer book put out by the OCA. It is written in cyrillic so it is a good way to practice as you pray.

Mir s Toby,
Dmitri

On my site, on the Slavic page, there is a link to an uncomplicated and cool site called "Teach Yourself Church Slavonic' that has some prayers written out phonetically and flash card–like graphics to teach some words written in old Cyrillic letters.

Presviat�yu, prech�stuyu, preblagoslov�nnuyu, sl�vnuyu Vlad�chitsu n�shu Bogor�ditsu i Prisnod[y]�vu Mar�yu, so fs�mi sviat�mi pomian�vshe, s�mi seb[y]�, i drug dr�ga, i ves zhiv�t nash Hr�stu B�gu predad�m. (Accent marks added.)

Calling to mind our most holy, most pure, most blessed and glorious Lady, the Mother of God and ever-virgin Mary, with all the saints, let us commend ourselves and each other and our whole lives to Christ our God.

In Cyrillic (Peter the Great, pre-1918 Russian style):

Пресвятую, пречистую, преблагословенную, славную Владычицу нашу, Богородицу и приснодђву Марию, со всђми святыми помянувше, сами себе и другъ друга и весь животъ нашъ Христу Богу предадимъ.

ђ = Closest PC character equivalent to the old Cyrillic letter "ять', a "yeh/eh' letter no longer used in modern Russian.

(Serbs will recognize ђ as actually a letter from their version of the Cyrillic alphabet, for the "dzh' sound.)

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 12-19-2001: Message edited by: Serge ]

Just a question:

The use of OCS (Old Church Slavonic = Old High Bulgarian) is a tradition in the Slavic Church of the Balkans and the Greater Rus.

It is a wonderful, if somewhat complicated, language. (Damnable hard and soft signs. Drives ya' nuts! And the verbs: headache making. Makes Hebrew with its seven verb conjugations look like Cub Scouts!)

Although it is an admirable effort to 'learn' the Slavonic so that one can appreciate the "old country" liturgy and its heavenly music, the fact remains that OCS is not really a contemporary spoken language, and the intent to learn it as a communication vehicle (=communicate with God via liturgy) is doomed to quasi-failure. [I did the 2 semester OCS class at Boston College; we used the Harvard texts and the Oxford University Press language/dictionary books.]

I can read the text in the 'old' characters (when printed in two color form, they're GREAT; I can use the more recent Russian orthography, although the 'script' drives me crazy.

But my point is: this is a great exercise in historical linguistics. But how useful is it to one's prayer life?

What is most useful is the understanding of the texts of our liturgies and how they can kick our tails into doing what the Gospels demand and our spiritual fathers and mothers have interpreted.

Orthodoxy (and the Byzantine Catholics) have access to a most WONDERFUL spiritual pathway -- it actually works!!! But let us not confuse adherence to Byzantinity/Constantinopolity in its historical garb as the pathway to salvation. It's not. The key is the internalization of the words of our spiritual fathers and mothers that dispense their wisdom to guide us. And if one does this as a 'cant' (i.e., a ritual singing/chanting) WITHOUT a clear ability to understand what is being communicated, then we're just being antiquarian.

The key factor is: the words/thoughts of our spiritual ancestors provide us a valid and viable pathway to salvation. But using their words -- without the ability to really understand what they're saying in OCS -- is not a good idea.

PRAY what our forebears have taught us. And: STUDY! STUDY! STUDY! (Oh yeah, and PRAY! PRAY! PRAY!) Oh yeah: and self-sacrifice until it hurts!

Blessings!

Dr John,

Now I am confused. What exactly is your advice?

Is it that I not bother with trying to learn Old Church Slavonic?

I wish to do learn so that I may participate more. At this time I do not know anything, I do not say the replies that are in OCS during the Liturgy because I do not know them or how to pronounce them.

During the Sunday Liturgy, when I can attend a Byzantine Ruthenian Divine Liturgy, this is not much of a problem, but during Easter it is.

At the Melkite church I attend, OCS is of no help as they use Greek and Arabic, but because I am there every week, execept for my visits to the Pittsburgh area, I have a handle on the responses in those languages. Which by the way are few.

I checked the local community college, all they have is a couple of classes in Russian.


In Christ,
David

Dr John,

DavidB just wanted to know how to go about checking out Old Slavonic. He didn't want a lecture on the uselessness of learning a dead language.

anastasios

David,

If you are looking for a book that actually teaches you OCS, rather than just learning the prayers/responses phonetically as I suggested, then you may want to check out a new book offered in the Light & Life catalog for Advent.

Catalog Page: 201

Title: Grammar of the Church Slavonic Language

Book description given:
This is perhaps the only book available in English for those who wish to study Church Slavonic. Very thorough. Covers Etymology, Parts of Speech, Syntax, etc. 438 pages.

Order # GRAM500

Price: 22.99

www.light-n-life.com [light-n-life.com]

Anastasios, as one of those 'irrelevant' cradle folks who grew up with liturgy in the "old country language", I was only making the point that unless one is 'fluent' in the other language, then the prayer aspects are going to be lost.

Since both demotic Greek and OCS are no longer living languages, trying to "learn" them is no easy task -- just like "learning Latin". (I had four years high school and four years college Latin; I can sorta kinda read it; and in seminary we were obliged to speak in Latin for the first 2 years. It was a joke.)

My point is: learning Old Church Slavonic is a wonderful linguistic exercise; it allows one to more or less 'interpret' the texts of the liturgy. But as native English speakers, the critical issue is: we need to have the texts READILY available to us for catechesis and for prayer. The liturgies are our catechism -- and if we are going to be real flesh and blood, 21st century American Constantinopolitan Christians, we NEED these texts to help us in our day to day lives.

Learn OCS? Sure! Learn Greek? Absolutely!! But to do so in order to pray? Ummm, I think there's going to be a problem because the transitioning (the psychological/cognitive process) is going to be a distraction to the prayer.

I grew up with the Greek. And I can sing it. And I love it with all my heart, including all the flatted 6ths that make it sound so 'oriental'. But, when it comes to the unique troparia, kondakia, odes, canones, irmosi, etc. that I don't have memorized, then I'm out of luck linguistically, and -- spiritually. And I can do the Slavonic too, perforce of my being a part of a Russian Catholic parish community.

Doing 'cant', i.e., singing words that are not one's communicational language(s), is just an exercise in aesthetics. It sounds great; but is NOT a vehicle for communication or prayer because one has no psychological (cognitive) connection with the utterances.

St. Paul tells us that we must pray with our hearts and our minds. If one is doing cant, one is not really praying with the mind. One is merely doing rote recitation of what one has memorized. As a five year old, I could say the 'pater imon' in pretty good Greek (impressed the hell out of the neighbors), but since I wasn't really speaking Greek at that time, it was just a memorization exercise.

In sum: learn the Slavonic; learn the Greek; learn the Hebrew. But pray the way that you speak. My Greek Orthodox mother (former choir member at St. John's in Boston) paid a visit to my Ruthenian parish in Annandale. She confided to me after liturgy: "this is the first time that I really was able to understand and completely follow the Leitourgia."

Us cradles have had to deal with the transition from old country to America. And we all have been making the transition from 'immigrant church' to 'American church', trying to preserve the core elements of our faith and culture, but trying to be spiritually and culturally relevant to the newer generations.

Unfortunately, some of the 'newbies' are of the mind that the 'old stuff' is just what is needed for their spirituality. And they sometimes seek to foist this antiquarianism upon us cradle folks saying that we must be true to our 'heritage'. Sorry to say this, but: we've moved on. We're Americans now; we both love and respect our heritage, but we're now red-white-and-blue with a whole mess of stars.

If one wants Slavonic (or Greek, or Arabic or Armenian) then move there and don't try to revert us into our 19th century forebears. They came here for a reason, and they wanted their children to be Americans -- with all the incredible blessings and opportunities that America offers to us children of shepherds, peasant farmers, and small merchants.

OCS for educational purposes? Sure. (But there are only about 5 universities where it is offered: Harvard, Boston College, Yale, Michigan and UCLA.) For church? No. Pray in your own mother tongue. As the scriptures say: "Ex abundantia cordis os loquitur". ("From the abundance of the heart does the mouth speak.") One can't express one's heart in foreign tongues.

I apologize in advance for being so cranky about this; but as an American cradle, many of us have been there and have gone through the pain of making the transition from old to new. To be confronted with the idea that we've got to go back through this stuff to an earlier mode of living is just painful, frightening and an assault on who we've become.

Blessings!

Dr John,

as one of those 'irrelevant' cradle folks who grew up with liturgy in the "old country language"

Weren't you brought up Roman Catholic and didn't you spend most of the first few decades of your life as a Roman Catholic?

I was only making the point that unless one is 'fluent' in the other language, then the prayer aspects are going to be lost.

Good point, but...

I have reread this thread and nowhere did anyone say s/he needed to learn OCS in order to pray at all. Here is what David said:


Not unreasonable. And if one is worshipping with a Russian congregation, then yes, one should learn at least some OCS so one can pray better when in church. Some of us belong to Russian communities, you know.

Regarding demotic Greek, I think that is the modern spoken language. (Demotic -> demos, the people, as in democracy. It's the people's language.) There was classical (Attic?) Greek, the language of Homer, Plato and Aristotle (the language English schoolboys and Oxbridge men learnt and mastered); then the koine Greek of the New Testament. I think the Greek Orthodox liturgical language is medieval or as we now call it "Byzantine' Greek. Then with the rebirth of Greek nationhood was the attempt to revive the classical language in some form; this artificial Greek was taught in schools until around 1974 or so, right? Then the Greek government gave in and made demotic Greek, the actual talk of the people, the official language, which it is today.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 12-20-2001: Message edited by: Serge ]

I appreciate your comments, Serge. My point is that we have to pray and we can't use 'language' that is not "language" for us. Memorizing prayers and hymns syllable by syllable is not praying with "the understanding" as St. Paul told us. It is 'cant' - a memorization exercise. Our Divine Liturgy and other liturgical services are our catechism; we learn our faith by hearing and singing them. (The Ruthenians win hands-down because they have the tradition of popular singing. Everybody sings the stuff -- all of it -- and everybody learns. I catch myself driving in the car singing: "Let Habakuk, speaking on behalf of God, stand with us at the divine watch..." I've LEARNED the hymns from Paschal Matins, I've memorized the texts [with the music] and they support my understanding of the faith. So too, the other hymns, odes, etc.)

If I'm singing in OCS or Greek which are NOT my native tongues, I'm not gaining the benefit of learning the faith through my participation in the liturgy. There is NO question that the texts and the music are inspiring and that the music especially can work my soul. But I don't really always understand what I'm singing. (The 'Vichnaya pamyat' brings me to tears. But it's 'emotional' and not doctrinal.)

As for my personal history, I was brought up in both churches, RC and Greek Orthodox. Sunday for me was 'pew-day'. St John's in Boston (GO), or Assumption (now Dormition) (GO) in Somerville and St. Benedict's (RC). Like a lot of us in America, I was bi-churchial. And I really enjoyed both and even as a kid I just saw these churches as different manifestations of ethnic groups' understanding of the Gospel. Not necessarily different "Churches". The Protestant churches were a different matter. They didn't do the necessary legit stuff -- it was more like a meeting with hymns.

So, perhaps I'm biased, but I see Catholicism and Orthodoxy as essentially the same, but with different ethnic presuppositions. However, the question of language remains. The RCs did stuff in Latin; the Greeks did stuff in Greek. But now, as Americans, we need to make sure that our people get the catechesis they need, in a language they understand. We don't need Orthodox sounding like Episcopalians because they don't really know Orthodoxy, even though they can sing like angels in OCS.

Much of the BS that one reads in the newspaper when it is doing churchy reporting or what one gets from "Catholics" or "Orthodox" talking about the faith is the direct result of either bad, very bad, or non-existant catechesis.

People don't read 'theology' books. Nor do they read history. So, they NEED to learn from the liturgy -- and they have to understand what is being prayed so that they can really know what our beliefs are. We don't need Orthodox or Catholics sounding like Episcopalians because they don't know any better.

The original question was:

"I would like to learn some so that I am not so lost when I hear it when I visit Pittsburgh."

This is bad news. We should be serving our brother spiritual food (albeit with a soupcon of ethnic flavoring) and not forcing him to try to "learn" a language so that he can participate in Divine Liturgy. A little OCS or Greek is fine. BUT it must take a back seat to our obligation to preach the Gospel.

Brother Serge may well worship in a "Russian" congregation; and perhaps since the majority of the people there are immigrants with limited English there is a need to use OCS in the liturgy and a Russian sermon, but if wants to draw the unchurched into a community, they are not going to come to this particular community. They'll go elsewhere where they don't have to take language lessons in order to pray and learn. I can go, for example, to an Armenian church to visit with them and to pray. If the whole thing is in Armenian, I can appreciate my experience. But I'm not going to consider joining this community because I don't know Armenian. Same with the "Russian" parish. It's a wonderful experience, but it's never going to be "home" to anybody but a "Russian".

If we insist on being "immigrant" churches, then we must live with the fact that our outreach is only going to be with the "immigrant" community and not with the general population. And in that case, we are perhaps reneging on our responsibility to "go forth and preach the Gospel to all nations" including our unchurched American brethren who need us badly.

Blessings!

Dr John:

I am in total agreement with you. I recently read a book on the Philosophy of the Mind. In it, there was a comparison of such "cant" language to the software in a computer. A computer can "recognize" the text and respond accordingly but has no idea, no insight, as to what is being said. The computer is a passive instrument that is not changed by the dialogue with the user. This is not language; the computer does not achieve the level of "mind."

Furthermore, there is already a fundamental break in our theology. Much of our theology can be found in the Hours, the daily troparia, which "set up" the weekly liturgy. In fact, I have often pondered if those who favor a return to the old languages are really trying to rediscover the authenticity lost by the reduction of Eastern practice to the Divine Liturgies alone. That is, if only we used the old language, then we would rediscover true Orthodoxy!

I, like you, wonder how a church, can be simultaneously universal and exclusive. In the diaspora, the use of the old languages discourage the non-ethnic masses. the Church becomes an enclave of the elect which is directly contrary to its own fundamental mission.

I take to heart your previous discussion on liturgy as our language with God. This language is already fundamentally different from our ordinary person-to-person interaction. It involves the totality of one's being. The words comprise only a small part of this conversation with God. It involves our senses (sight, sound, smell, touch, and taste), our minds (which requires understanding), emotions, our body posture, and, yes, each other in unity of belief and purpose. This is what the Byzantine Liturgy is about. This is what our theology is about. We are unified individually, body, soul, and spirit, and together. When we achieve this unity, then we are Church, then we are the "bride."

Fr Dcn John

Дорогие друзья,

Д-р Джон: Правда, но много от нас русских православных христиан — включеная американцы как я — понимает и может говорить по-русски. Мне кажется, что тебе просто не нравится "инострание языкa' в церкве, как много ирландскоамериканские, англоязычные римо-католики в "Новус Ордо'. :p

Yo, Dr J: You've got a point — parroting isn't praying and we need to reach out to other English-speakers — but many Russian Orthodox, including American-born like me, can understand and speak at least some Russian. Я человек, не птица безумная! Plus, it seems to me like many Irish-American monolingual English-speakers in the Novus Ordo, you have a bias against "foreign languages' in church, perhaps more a result of your Roman/Novus formation than Orthodox life. Reminds me of the joke: "What do you call someone who speaks only one language? An American.'

Also, isn't it just a little arrogant to claim that we as Americans are somehow more "evolved' than European forbears? While I am grateful for a lot of things in American life, from fashion and fitness (including enough to eat!) to modern inventions like central heating, reliable indoor plumbing (actually, thank the Brits for that) and computers, I also am grateful to Russian and other European and Middle Eastern cultures for bringing Orthodoxy to North America.

You may think I'm just one of those annoying neurotic converts enamored of the old ways for no good reason, but to our Russians at our little church (and I agree), the Russian and Slavonic languages have дух — "soul' — which is partly why we are an OCS-praying community 52 years after the first Russian, Ukrainian and Serb DPs got off the boat. On another thread I mentioned a family I know, of second-generation and bilingual folks whose priest father and mother were circa-1917 exiles, who actually quit their Metropolia church and came to ours when, after the M's transformation into the OCA, it dumped all its Slavonic.

We have one convert who complains about the lack of English, to which my priest said, in addition to what is in the paragraph above, if you are adopted by a Slavic family, be prepared to eat some голупцы!

So may we Churches of the Orthodox (Constantinopolitan as you like to say) tradition continue as a polyglot, multicultural Church in America — including under my envisioned future American Orthodox Church (New York Patriarchate) with one bishop per see... especially now that Russia has opened up and immigration has started again. Let's bring in the many Soviet-bred, once unchurched Russians (they are the new life at my church) as well as the unchurched or non-Orthodox American-born.

Here's a question for discussion that perhaps can be moved to a new thread as we veer away from the worthy topic of resources to teach oneself OCS: your Ruthenian Church is mostly American and English-speaking, yet outreach to the unchurched and to disaffected Catholics perhaps still isn't what it should be. Why not? (Since there is no more language barrier.) Is the "Indian reservation' or "inferiority' complex still alive — do people assume evangelization is the Romans' job? I understand lack of resources (Russian Orthodox churches aren't exactly flush with cash either) but it doesn't cost a whole lot to make flyers and put them up, or to run a little ad in the hometown paper (ours runs church ads free)... or make a website for one's church and put it on a server like Angelfire or Tripod — a cyber-billboard for all the world to see. I'm looking forward especially to a response from Dan Lauffer, who is keen on evangelism and seems to really know how to do it.

Fr Dcn John:

In the diaspora, the use of the old languages discourage the non-ethnic masses.

I say the language of the majority of the congregation should set the standard, but with wide application of economy for evangelistic purposes. Has your American church got a new immigrant group? Fine! Serve in their liturgical language once a month. Has your immigrant church got a convert population? Great! Serve in English once a month. Live in a big city that can support more than one congregation? Super! Have one do things in the old country's tongue and the other do all English.

BTW, today at my church we celebrated the feast of the Conception of the Mother of God by Righteous Anna and in so doing had an historic first for me in my years there — the Divine Liturgy in English. (Why? We also received a convert today — an American former Protestant who asked to be received by Baptism, and was.) All in English. The roof didn't fall in. Out West there are convert priests and congregations in my jurisdiction who are monolingual English all the way. Let a thousand flowers bloom.

http://oldworldrus.com