www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology The veiling of women

Dear Professor Dan,

Your point is well taken, and certainly the rules of pious modesty dictate that women come into church appropriately attired and veiled.

The veil or the scarf is the standard Eastern manner for women to be attired while standing in Church.

Alex

Professor Alex,

Thank you so much. I'm regaining my confidence in Eastern spirituality with your post. What was troubling me was that I posted precisely the same thread on a UMC board and on a RC board. The UMC thought I hated women. The RC's very much appreciated the post and several of the women told of their experiences wearing the veil. Here, I get opposition which seems to be based upon fear or legalism, I'm not sure which from some of the posters. In other words, I got the response here I expected on the RC forum and on the RC forum I got what I expected here.

Have we become legalistic in our fear? That often happens. But perfect love casts out fear.

That's what is troubling me.

Dan L

Dear Professor Dan,

I agree - I often wonder about some of the posters here myself!

You are a solid Christian, an Apostolic man, called by the Spirit to give witness to the hope that we have in God through Christ Jesus our Lord!

EC's are unworthy to have you amongst themselves!

Alex

Dear Friend Alex,

I hope we meet someday. I want to greet you with a holy kiss and slip you that $20.00 US I promised.

But I think none of us are worthy of the great Patrimony left us by Christ, the Apostles, and our fathers and mothers in the faith.

Dan L

Dan,

Don't be troubled, the response you got from me was not based on fear or legalism. I fear only the Lord and anyone who knows me knows I am anything but a legalist. The quote and article were inflammatory. If you want to discuss the merits of headcoverings for women fine, but don't put up quotes like:

"There is considerable resistance, even among so-called traditional Catholics, to women covering their heads in Church, or to use the more common phrase, to women wearing veils. Now, the veiling of woman is an Apostolic command (I Cor, XI:4-16), and hence the attitude of a faithful Catholic is one which accepts Apostolic injunctions without question."

And expect not to be called on it. We both know that the majority of Byzantine Catholic women do not wear veils. So what was the point of your quote other than to put down those who don't. Whether you intended it or not that is the way that quote comes off.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Dear Dan:

Since you put it that way...

I would respond by bringing up the fasting rules as they currently stand. The mandated rules are, relatively speaking, minimal. However, many of us choose to fast more strictly.

Same thing with the veils. If a woman wants to wear one becasue it "helps," no problem.

As for encouragement of this practice, a member of the clergy must also be careful not to alienate people. It's a fine line, I know.

Yours,

hal

Father Deacon,

My own inclination is: "There is no law about veiling or not veiling. However, St. Paul did encourage it. Pray that God will lead you in the matter." I would add a personal note: "When I see a woman wear a veil I want more than ever to be the Godly man He wants me to be."

Yet, why deny that St. Paul encouraged women to wear the veil and discouraged men from wearing head coverings. The Church hasn't forbidden the wearing of the veil and I couldn't imagine that it ever would. So why not encourage it?

The article is just a discussion starter. If it is a discussion ender then ignore it.

Hal,

I agree. If we are honest about reclaiming our patrimony I believe we cannot ignore this Apostolic admonision.

Dan L

I have seen a female altar server or two who could have done with paper bags over their heads, but that's another story....

Mea culpa....

Why?

I don't know about any of you other husbands, but I have enough trouble trying to be the Godly man He wants me to be for my wife (who needs no veil to express her devotion to God), I certainly don't need to look at veiled women for motivation.

IMO, veils do not necessarily express devotion. It's funny how some faithful will not look beyond veils or other garb to discern the spititual devotion of a person.

Father Deacon,

Pray for me that I not become impatient. We do not have the ability to look at the heart like God does. How can we be expected to discern what you say we should discern?

Nothing at all "necessarily" expresses devotion. I can see beyond the veil but not clear to the heart. My wife is very devout and she does not wear the veil. She and I have been happily married for 37 years. We are constantly growing in our awareness of how to be Godly husband and wife to one another. But men and women in the Church are more than just two people. The Theology of the Body begun by Pope John II is a study I strongly urge everyone to study. I would that some would comment on the thread I started on the subject in the Evangelization forum.

To answer your question which I find hard to believe you asked: "Godly men and Godly women in each others company always inspire each other. That is why I'm inspired by both Godly men and Godly women." As I've time I'll tell you hundreds of such stories.

Now, you want us to be able to see beyond the veil to the heart of another and you cannot apparently discern my intentions for bringing up this subject. I find that troubling.

Again, please forgive any unnecessary rudeness on my part. I don't intend it that way, but I really don't understand your counsel.

dan l

I forget that not every congregation has spiritual retreats like the one I attended last weekend.

Let me propose something. I propose that every Church have a men's spiritual retreat and a women's spiritual retreat which focuses upon the Holy Father's study of The Theology of the Body. Father Loya is a regional director of this study.

I don't think the women included in their study the wearing of veils but it certainly fits. Then through weekends of prayer and discernment those who are moved to follow certain spiritual disciplines can do so without being self conscious.

dan l

Dan,

I certainly see no rudeness in your response, but we look beyond the veil, not to the heart but the fruit of the Spirit. John the Theologian writes:

or to paraphrase St Paul, neither veiled or unveiled counts for anything, but only faith working through love. (cf Galatians 5:6)

The real point of Paul's teaching had to do with modesty, ie., acceptable norms of modesty. I would posit a guess that given the norms of his day, St Paul would condemn as immodest veils that women wear today.

But let's take this to its logical conclusion, if veils are so important as a devotional practice why restrict their use to the temple? Why not encourage their use outside the temple and in the home whenever women pray?

I certainly do not, however, chide women who choose to wear a veil or a scarf. I do have a problem with people who see the veil of scarf as a gauge of true orthopraxis.

SLAVA ISUSU CHRISTU!

Alex wrote: "... The veil or the scarf is the standard Eastern manner for women to be attired while standing in Church..."

Pan Doktor, this was NOT always the case. Look at the traditional national costumes of Ukraine, the young UN-MARRIED girls are always wearing flowers in their hair both in Church and outside of Church. This was the SIGN that they were UN-MARRIED and had permission to marry from their parents.

The veils & scarves were for the married women and the Babas ( I have so many fotos of Baba's in scarves from my trips to Slovakia and also have scores of antique postcards and real photo postcards from the turn of the 20th century showing young girls and women with flowers and scarves in church)

The idea of covering a woman's hair is so much part of a culture rather than a prayer thing.

Look at Western Europe and the lace caps and peaked caps and other caps worn by the French, Dutch, German and Swiss women. NOT ONE SINGLE VEIL OR SCARF BUT ALWAYS WORN BY A MARRIED WOMAN!

And we aren't EVEN going to mention those TACKY chapel veils from the 60's & 70's!!!

I'm calling the ASPCA 'cause I'm tired of seeing this "dead horse" being repeatedly beaten here....

y'all need to move on already....

mark

Dear Marko,

Yes, I said "women."

Girls aren't women . . .

For one thing, they giggle more . . .

Alex

Dan wrote:"... we are the ones from whom the Muslims took our custom..."

Actually, it's the other way around.

It was the Muslims who forced the women in the areas they "occupied" to wear the veil and the head coverings. It was LAW that a woman could not go out in public UNDER PAIN OF DEATH without her hair being covered.

It was also forbidden for women who were pregnant to "show" their pregnancy.

If you look at the traditional folk dress of the women of Greece, Macedonian and Bulgaria, you will find them wearing HUGE "buckles" across the abdomen. These were originally designed as small shields to protect the woman from being punched or kicked in the abdomine by Ottoman soliders. The soldiers were hoping to cause the woman to miscarry.

There are plenty of ethno-cultural and ethno-graphic courses and other resources that you can use to learn any of this information...