www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Why Can't We Proselytize the Schismatic Orthodox?

Dear PaxTacum, I can see where, from a Roman Catholic perspective, that Orthodox are not "Roman Catholics" and therefore are possibly considered "outside" the pale of the Church.

However, because of the existence and total approbation of Eastern Catholics, including our theology and liturgies, the Roman Church has made it clear that Eastern Christianity within the context of the ancient Patriarchates, is a unified whole. If Eastern Catholics are to be considered real "Church", within the context of Catholicism, it follows, ceteris paribus that Eastern Orthodox are also real "Church". There is only the question of administrative structures that divide the communities. And this is NO WHERE considered to be sufficient to be considered a viable element of separation. It could only be considered "schism" (i.e., administrative separation) and not even vaguely approaching 'heresy' or whatever. And the Holy Father himself has said that even the word "schism" is too strong to desbribe the status of each Church in relation to the other.

Perhaps, from the Roman Catholic perspective, the notion that anyone who is not part of the Roman Catholic community is "fair game" for prosyletizing. Both the Vatican Council, as well as our Holy Father have spoken clearly that this is not the case. As for us Eastern Catholics, this whole proposition is a non-starter.

There are indeed some in each community who maintain that administrative coherence is the criterion against which "unity in faith" is to be determined.

I respectfully suggest that this is merely a minority opinion, and it does not represent what the reality proposes.

This month's Orthodox Observer , the publication of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese in America, on the front page (above the fold!) shows the Holy Father in Rome meeting with Archbishop Demetrious. The accompanying article speaks very clearly about the ongoing improving relationship between the two communities. This seems to signify that not only the Roman Catholic Church, as well as the major branch of Orthodoxy in the U.S., are moving - quite voluntarily - towards the loving fraternity that the Lord so clearly desired for His people.

This is certainly what the Bishops (in both groups) are striving for. And we, the faithful, should follow their leadership and study why this is the right thing to do.

May the Lord bring the fraternal closeness to His Churches that He clearly desired: "that they all may be one as You, Father, in me, and I in You."

Blessings!!

PaxTecvm wrote: I think it's idealistic fiction to say that the Orthodox share the same faith we Catholics do.

PT, you are most welcome to that belief. Unfortunately it is in opposition with the stated position of Pope John Paul II. I am sorry that you disagree with what he, other popes and the Vatican II Council have taught.

PaxTecvm wrote: That only depends on which particular Orthodox Christian you happen to be talking to at a given moment. There are many who consider Catholicism to be heretical for doctrines such as the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, papal primacy of jurisdiction, etc.

What the Orthodox think of us is irrelevant in this discussion. The issue you have raised is what the Catholic Church teaches about Orthodoxy.

PaxTecvm wrote: What am I to do when an Orthodox tells me that his priest says artificial birth control is OK? Refuse to tell him that he is wrong, and that the use of such brth control is sinful? Refuse to show him the Truth? What about when he tells me that the Holy Father holds only an honorary primacy? Refuse to share the truth about that with him as well? Refuse to show him the Scriptural and Traditional foundations for our Catholic beliefs?

Assuming that you have earned the right to speak with someone who is Orthodox, you could simply tell him or her about the Catholic teaching on these issues (in 20 words or less) and then leave it alone. God has not appointed you to seek out Orthodox Christians and bring them one at a time into communion with the Catholic Church. The Holy Father has clearly stated that the issue is to reestablish communion between Churches, not individuals. You should respect what he has taught on this issue.

PaxTecvm wrote: I've read Orientale Lumen, and don't see where it supports any of what has been said, namely, that the Orthodox posess the fullness of the true Faith.

Then you need to read it again. I provide a few excerpts that touch on this. Note that in this excerpt the Holy Father speaks to the tradition of the Eastern Church as an integral part of the heritage of the Catholic Church, and that the full manifestation of the Church�s catholicity be restored to the Church. The part about one community not being in opposition to another speaks against individual proselytization of other individuals.

(From section 1) Since, in fact, we believe that the venerable and ancient tradition of the Eastern Churches is an integral part of the heritage of Christ's Church, the first need for Catholics is to be familiar with that tradition, so as to be nourished by it and to encourage the process of unity in the best way possible for each.

Our Eastern Catholic brothers and sisters are very conscious of being the living bearers of this tradition, together with our Orthodox brothers and sisters. The members of the Catholic Church of the Latin tradition must also be fully acquainted with this treasure and thus feel, with the Pope, a passionate longing that the full manifestation of the Church's catholicity be restored to the Church and to the world, expressed not by a single tradition, and still less by one community in opposition to the other; and that we too may be granted a full taste of the divinely revealed and undivided heritage of the universal Church(2) which is preserved and grows in the life of the Churches of the East as in those of the West.

In this excerpt Pope John Paul II touches on the need for Catholic and Orthodox to work together to proclaim the Gospel. Note that working together precludes any attempt to convert one another from Orthodoxy to Catholicism. Note also that the Holy Father speaks to the need to strengthen our Orthodox brothers and sisters.

(From section 19) Thus it is urgently necessary to become aware of this most serious responsibility: today we can cooperate in proclaiming the Kingdom or we can become the upholders of new divisions�.

(From section 20) But here I would like to reassert that this commitment is rooted in the conviction that Peter (cf. Mt 19:17 - 19) intends to place himself at the service of a Church united in charity. "Peter's task is to search constantly for ways that will help preserve unity. Therefore he must not create obstacles but must open up paths. Nor is this in any way at odds with the duty entrusted to him by Christ: 'strengthen your brothers in the faith' (cf. Lk 22:32). �

Today we know that unity can be achieved through the love of God only if the Churches want it together, in full respect for the traditions of each and for necessary autonomy. We know that this can take place only on the basis of the love of Churches which feel increasingly called to manifest the one Church of Christ, born from one Baptism and from one Eucharist, and which want to be sisters.(54) As I had occasion to say: "the Church of Christ is one. If divisions exist, that is one thing; they must be overcome, but the Church is one, the Church of Christ between East and West can only be one, one and united." �

(From section 23) I feel that the Lord's call to work in every way to ensure that all believers in Christ will witness together to their own faith is fundamental, especially in the territories where the children of the Catholic Church - Latin and Eastern - and children of the Orthodox Churches live together in large numbers. After their common martyrdom suffered for Christ under the oppression of atheist regimes, the time has come to suffer, if necessary, in order never to fail in the witness of charity among Christians, for even if we gave our body to be burned but had not charity, it would serve no purpose (cf. 1 Cor 13:3) We must pray intensely that the Lord will soften our minds and hearts, and grant us patience and meekness.

Again, note that the Holy Father has taught that we are to witness to the world together, as one.

PaxTecvm wrote: I haven't read Ut Unum Sint, but plan on doing so soon.

You have not even read the source documents that summarize the teaching of the Catholic Church and, in your ignorance, you dare pronounce judgment on others? That�s pure arrogance.

I highly suggest that you spend time in study, prayer and reflection before you condemn anyone.

Admin

reply:
The Orthodox Church has the same variety of members that the Catholic Church has. Some are like you denouncing the other's faith as incomplete, schismatic and/or heretical. Others heed the call of many Church leaders as expressed in the Balamand Agreement and recognize one another as members of "sister Churches." You have to decide which path you will take. But the answer to hostility is not returned hostility. At least not in my reading of the Gospel. As the wise Administrator has said, you can answer charges of "heresy" without returning that charge.

reply: Exactly. This is why there is ecumenical work to be done, not proselytism. I don't know your religious background, (sounds to me to be Roman Catholic), but if you were more familiar with Eastern Catholicism you might be aware that the Pope has called Eastern Catholics to help Rome find ways to formulate the faith in a way more consistent and acceptable to the East.

reply:
What you should do is contribute to the dialogue between East and West constructively by sharing with them links like this one:

http://www.paratheke.net/stephanos/

which show East and West are much closer than some in either Church might think.

reply: You might also want to pray for a new Pope and Church teaching while your at it because the current one rejects what you are praying for.

reply: You might want to read it again a little more closely. Here is an example of H.H. John Paul II's attitude toward the Orthodox. See if it matches yours:

“Pondering over the questions, aspirations and experiences I have mentioned, my thoughts turn to the Christian heritage of the East. I do not
intend to describe that heritage or to interpret it: I listen to the churches of the East, which I know are living interpreters of the treasure of
tradition they preserve. In contemplating it, before my eyes appear elements of great significance for a fuller and more thorough understanding of the Christian experience." (Orientale Lumen, #5)

Thus even the Pope himself does not have the audacity to try and interpret the Eastern Churches faith for them. He "listens" to them and learns from them, something you might want to consider trying as well.

reply: Your whole tone is wrong, brother. Do you see your own Patriarch talking of the Eastern Churches this way? No. Do you know why? Because for nearly the last millenium Rome has taken such an arrogant approach to the East and it has been proven to be most disastrous. Far from "converting" the East it has produced such results as to further alienate the two Churches. Thus, the Roman Pontiffs learning from such historical failure, has decided to take a new approach to the East, one of mutual respect as "sister Churches." But you are not taking their lead. You still seem stuck in the past, wanting to personally pontificate religious demands to the historic Eastern Churches. You're following the old path, which has already proven to be bankrupt.

If you want proof of what we are saying, the most compelling truth is from Church history itself. How can you have missed the significant fact that in the 15th century an Ecumenical Council was attempted by both East and West, Eastern Orthodox and Roman Catholics. But wait a minute here. You can not have a council with heretics. Nowhere in Church history has there ever been a calling of heretics to come and have an Ecumenical Council with the one Holy Catholic and Apostolic Church. This is because they are outside that Church. But, at the Council of Florence, both sides sat down as legitimate heirs of the Apostolic Tradition and Apostolic Succesion both Churches had maintained. Again, you don't have an Ecumenical Council with an heretic, but with a co-member of the Catholic Church. Therefore, the precedent you seek so desperately is there. All you need is to have the eyes to see and the heart to believe.

The choice is yours, work for the reunion of these two Churches (as your Pope has called you to) or continue to be an advocate of an approach that only worsens our division. I know which path I have chosen, I hope you reconsider yours.

In Christ's Light,

Wm. DerGhazarian

Dear Pax,

The problem I think, is that your ecclessiological views have not caught up to the changes in the RCC itself. Everything you've said regarding how you regard the Orthodox Churches would have not got you a lick of scorn by others who regard the Pope as the head of their religion, if you'd said them say, fifty years ago.

The problem it would seem is that your church has changed, but your views have not.

Granted, I can sympathize with your take on the subject, since in the ordinary categories of truth and error, not regarding the Orthodox Church (if RCC is the "true Church") as in heresy and schism makes little sense. However, such clear thinking about truth and error has been overcome by Catholicism's adoption of a more or less Anglican model of how the Church exists (branch-theory), with the modification that the RCC in such a set up is "best."

If I remember correctly, the documents of Vatican II describe the Pope's communion as existing in the "body of Christ", but with the implication that there are bodies that do not recognize the Pope with the same status. In such a branch-set up, I suppose the Vatican's revised orientation towards the Orthodox world (and towards other religions in general) becomes somewhat comprehensible (though clearly innovative.)

Obviously, such a "branch-theory" cannot be reciprocated by the Orthodox Church, though goodness knows many "Orthodox" ecumenists have tried to do this - in the form of recognizing the existance of mysteries outside of the Church, concelebrations, or even outright recognizing Rome as a "sister Church" with the great schism being little more than a family squabble that's been prolonged for several centuries.

Seraphim

Ahem� might I offer a correction? The Catholic Church teaches that the head of the Church is Jesus Christ.

Dear PaxTecvm,

If I may answer this as an Orthodox.

Please learn what the Orthodox believe and what your holy Church believes, try to take off the blinders of 'self love' (which both Orthodox and Catholics can be guilty of) and first and foremost pray and ask guidance from God, and our most Blessed Lady which we both share extreme love and devotion to.

If you do, you may find, as many of us have, that although there are differences in the 'defining' of these concepts, (which you must understand, the Eastern approach prefers not to do), that these concepts can be reconciled quite nicely.

When you have done that, and understand, for instance, that the East prays for the dead because it believes prayer for them is efficacious, and that in more traditional Orthodox circles, there is even a belief in aerial toll houses after death (look it up), you will be able to realize and then SHARE how few differences we actually have. Read historical accounts of the times of events, such as the Council of Florence, when St. Mark of Ephesus said that he really had no problem with the concept of 'purgatory', only that it was defined as a physical place, (even your church has clarified the medieval understanding of it). Or how the Patriach of Constantinople, at the time of the doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, in a letter to the Pope describing his differences with the West, did not mention the 'Immaculate Conception', but only the unilateral defining of it as doctrine. The list can go on and on...but I digress...

If you care to do that, and can do it in a loving and non-polemical way, as I have tried to do with my Orthodox brethren, I can almost guarantee that you will get through to their heart, and thus, will have won for God, yet another soul who may, in turn, pass along the truth and good will you have shared...(thus hastening the eventual glorious day of reunification of Christ's Body).

You will find that most Orthodox who say, " but we don't believe in this and/or that like you", are sorrowfully ignorant about their own beliefs and even MORE clueless about yours. They are ususally just repeating a blanket statement that they have heard somewhere. I have found, in my own experiences, that knowing all about the theology of your church (RC), and then sharing those truths with my Orthodox brethren, has been extremely enlightening for them.

Are there, even in this light, points of contention? Ofcourse , because cultures, even in secular matters, mentality and approach, are ALWAYS different. However, with God, who is our common language and culture of love , we should be able to overcome those differences...

and for this we must all pray and work. We should also pray for our spiritual leaders, who as Catholics and Orthodox, we honor and respect. Prosletyzing does not fit into this equation.

In Christ,
Alice

PaxTecvm:

I'd like to second what Alice has said, although our esteemed Administrator has also said it. If you wish to make statements regarding the two Churches, we would all be better served if you were to first read the appropriate documents, understand what the Catholic Church teaches, understand what the Orthodox Church teaches, and then address the issues.

There are real issues that divide us, but there is far more that unifies us. Much of the division is caused by words spoken hastily and without full comprehension of how they will be received by the other.

Your words, while sincerely believed, are not in keeping with the teachings of the Catholic Church. Ut Unam Sint says: Note that we are to employ an "ecumenical venture" -- that is, a journey of self-discovery in which we find who we are and offer to share that with others. In the process, we find out who they are and seek to invite them to join in our understanding. However, we recognize that it is possible to share the same understanding while expressing things differently. This differs fro, proselytizing in that we are not inducing them to join our expression of faith -- but to restore what we once had, a unity of faith, in which different expressions were normative.

BTW, the canonical understanding of schism is that an individual was in communion and then left. This applies to very few Orthodox today. For the same reason the Latin Church no longer calls Protestants (as a body) "heretics" since they did not have a Catholic faith which they rejected.

Please, make sure you know what the Church teaches before you seek to speak for Her.

Edward, deacon and sinner

My apologies to almost everyone. When I read the original posting on this thread, I assumed that the question was posed (albeit in a poor choice of words) in good faith. It has now become apparent that the "questioner" was grinding an axe of his own. I have no further suggestions to offer him, save that he stay away from all of the Christian East - he's unlikely to find us congenial or willing to accept his notions. Incognitus

Dear Seraphim,

I disagree with you. And if I were a member of the Orthodox Church I would still disagree with you. You seem to me to be just Pax Tecum in reverse. Neither of your approaches will lead the Churches into unity, in my opinion. You both, to me, represent the old (failed) school.

I present the Council of Florence to you both as a manifestation of the fact that even up to the 15th century, both Churches mutually recognized, that the Apostolic Tradition was intact enough in both Churches to at least sit down as the one Church of Christ in Council and try to reconcile their problems (the fact that they did not suceed is irrelevent to my point). You can lable that "branch theory heresy" if you like, but obviously the Council Fathers at that time did not share your or P.T.'s views, and neither do I and many on this forum (from all three Churches).

Trusting in Christ's Light,
Ghazar

P T:

In my own spiritual journey I have been received into communion with the Orthodox Church and then back into communion with the Catholic Church. In neither reception was I ever "converted" from one to another. Each reception was one that involved a great deal of respect for my own person and my attempt to follow where the Holy Spirit was leading me at the time.

I am astounded that you would ask the type of question that you asked at the start of this thread. The lack of charity that it displays was part of what the Vatican Council tried to rid the Catholic Church of. I wonder what source material you have been studying since it seems to come from sources written prior to the 1950s.

In charity my own spiritual director asked me to study the various churches and ecclesial communities so that by understanding we could at least begin to talk with each other. And Christian charity informed by the Gospel was the overarching principle in that study-- approximately 35 years ago. In order to understand the other, one must listen and learn from him on his own terms. That does not mean that I lose my own faith or give up what I believe. But honest listening means that I must learn the other's position as he states it and try to understand the reality of his faith from where he stands in it--and without polemics.

I don't pretend to know where the Catholic Church under the leadership of the last four Popes is going or what my own eclesiastical leadership is thinking or developing, but I do believe that what I am seeing is the manifestation of the Holy Spirit, alive and well, accomplishing something wonderful for the benefit of us all. Christ prayed that we all be one. And as so many of my brothers and sisters have stated or implied here, that doesn't mean arguing or angry exchanges.

I pray that you, too, can come to see that.

In the meantime, there have been many wise posts before this one that demonstrate that others have caught the vision and are wrestling honestly with it. I thank them for their shared insights. It won't be a smooth ride, but when the Holy Spirit is around it's always new and exciting.

In Christ,

BOB

Pax Tecvm,

If I may say so, I must agree that this is not the place to ask these questions. Not that your questions are inappropriate, but that the emotions stirring here are so strong that an ubiased and academic debate is (understandably) impossible. Your frustration is completely understandable, and I too ask myself the same questions. However, I don't post them here (most of the time) because of the luggage they carry with them. I think it would be akin to asking about the SSPX in a super-traditional Roman Catholic forum, although most of the members are under the Pope.

"In things necessary, unity, in things doubtful, liberty, in all things, charity."

Logos Teen

Anyone who comes to the Forum blazing with the gun of condemnation is not capable of participating in an unbiased and academic manner. There have been numerous excellent threads on these topics over the past several years. Problems arise only when an occasional Latin Catholic comes into an Eastern Christian household acting if he or she is the guardian of Catholicism and has the right to trample wherever he or she wishes. PaxTecvm would have received a far more friendly welcome if he or she had simply asked questions rather than to pronounce condemnations with challenges. How can anyone respect the posts of someone who is casting judgment while openly acknowledging that he or she is unfamiliar with the Church documents on the topic? I do not wish to be harsh but I would not be surprised to find that PaxTercvm�s style of witnessing chases more people away from the Church than it draws to the Church.

You're right, it might chase people away from Eastern Christianity.
I have found the reception towards RC's on this board very hostile over the years. Quite often the members of this board (and many Eastern Christian) boards assume a level of theological
literacy that is way, way beyond what most people, even reasonably well educated people, have. Also, one has to ask why do the people on this board have such thin skins-are the occasionally (factually) inaccurate posts by
RC newbies really that threatening to your spiritiual life, or the health of the Church?

On almost all Eastern Catholic/Orthodox board there are 3 classes of posters: seminarians, clergy, and converts either to Orthodoxy, or to the Byzantine Rite from the Roman Rite. In all 3 cases the amount of knowledge about history, doctrine, etc. is quite large by any measure. People who come from a Roman background, and may know nothing about BCism (which is very possible-outside of major cities and the rust belt its virtually unknown) may well assume you need an MDiv or a massive personal library full of Dumbarton Oaks or SVS books to really debate Eastern Christianity. As an Orthodox I really, really want to get along with my EC step brothers and sisters, but you know, charity runs both ways, even towards RCs.

OS

There have been a number of occasions in the past where Eastern Orthodox friends have discussed with me the fact that it is not conducive to the spiritual life to read some Orthodox discussion forums as there is alot of polemicism and arguing, and people acting uncharitably, etc, etc. I have on numerous occasions brought up the
Byzcath forum as an example of a place where people are courteous and kind, and contrast it as being unlike the Orthodox ones that my Orthodox friends complain about.

However, I am sad to see that as of late it seems that the situation has changed. I was frankly quite appalled at the behavior displayed towards Pax Tecvm, who according to one of his other posts is a 19 year old Community College student who only recently came back to the Lord, if I remember correctly. Could people please give him some slack, as it is entirely possible, that his theological training is limited and he has perhaps not been trained in the nuances of theological diplomacy?
Instead of hurling accusations at him, perhaps people could try and be kind and helpful. Not everyone who uses the terminology that he used intends it to be used in a mean spirited way.

It seems to me that there is a double standard on this forum. Orthodox not in union with Rome are completely free to present their claims that their Church is the one true Church, and explain the reasons that their Church re-chrismates or even re-baptizes Catholics. Or other statements that indicate that alot of the Orthodox consider Catholic sacraments inferior or at minimum to posess limited grace. But any time a Latin opens his mouth with an opinion that is contrary to what some Byzantine Catholics believe, then he is immediately and soundly reprimanded. There exists an arrogant attitude that Eastern Christianity is far superior to Western Christianity, and that somehow Latins are inferior. This presents a poor witness to Eastern Christianity, and I think only hinders relations between Eastern and Western Christians. I think alot of Latin Catholics would be put off by alot of comments made here, and would feel unwelcome. Ofcourse there are those Latins who regularly post on the forum, but I am talking about someone who might just drop in for a short while. And I am not saying that people are never charitable on this forum. There is plenty of that to go around. Forgive me if I offend anyone, I am only trying to offer one perspective, my own, which ofcourse is has its own biases like any one else, and ofcourse my perspective is very limited and quite fallible.

Another observation. The posters that describe mutually positive relations between Catholics and Orthodox, acting as though the two see each others Churches as being equal to each other seem to in large part be from the northeastern U.S. I don't think that this way of looking at things exists in very large part in other regions of the country. Even those from other countries don't share this attititude. For example, I met a college student from Greece once, who told me that he had to phone his spiritual father in Greece to get permission to step foot inside a Catholic Church building. There was an Orthodox mission parish that was temporarily holding services there. He said that his spiritual father had given him permission to only enter the building when there was an Orthodox service being held, otherwise he was strictly forbidden from entering the building. And there are plenty of people from Russia who have similar attitudes towards Catholicism. Perhaps not as extreme as this example, but they definitely don't have all kinds of good will towards the Catholic Church as though it were equal to the Orthodox. And these Greeks and Russians I am referring to are devout well informed Orthodox who are in canonical jurisdictions. They are mainstream Orthodox, not extremist break-away Orthodox. And most Catholics I come in contact with do not hold the view that the Orthodox Church is exactly the same Church as the Catholic Church.

One comment about Balamand. I was in the same room with a SCOBA bishop once who said that Balamand was not officially accepted by either the Orthodox or the Catholic Church. He offered a critique of the document and pointed out why he felt it was in error. One can read the book "The Truth" by Clark Carlton to see a critique of the Balamand Statement if I remember correctly.

And as far as the Catholic official position towards the Orthodox is concerned, I think at least if one were to assert that the Orthodox are not in schism with the Catholic Church, then at the very least one might want to acknowledge the fact that IMPAIRED communion exists, and not FULL communion. Catholic and Orthodox priests and bishops are not free to concelebrate with each other, and the priests and bishops of the two churches do not receive communion at each others altars. As painful as this might be for all of us, it is reality. The two Churches simply do not constitute one Church, at least not in the fullest sense. Otherwise there would be free regular concelebration.

And it is my opinion (not that my opinion matters in the least anyway) that true ecumenism needs not to gloss over things, but to honestly admit the differences while not dwelling on the differences, but dwelling on what binds us together. But we can't work out the differences if we ignore them either. So to act like Catholics and Orthodox are completely the same Church is not accurate, and if one doesn't look at the issues, how can they be worked out?

Once again I ask forgiveness to all whose toes I have stepped on, and to anyone I have offended. I say this in advance since I don't know if I will come back to read here on this forum any time in the near future. I will need to pray about it.

Pray for me.

Dunstan

I second that hooray...thank you for a beautiful and charitable response Alice...

And as for the conversion of the Orthodox...I was taught, in the Roman church, that conversion means 'change'...there is nothing about the Orthodox Church that needs to change... I pray that someday we will all be in fuller communion, but I wouldn't want anyone to have to 'convert' or change to achieve that communion.

Vie