www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Faith & Theology Why Can't We Proselytize the Schismatic Orthodox?

Hopefully I can receive answers instead of insults.

What exactly do we Catholics mean when we say that we shouldn't proselytize Orthodox?

Basically I'm wondering: What should I be doing differently with Protestants, that I'm not supposed to do with Orthodox?


I try to lead my life in a way befitting a devout Catholic Christian; namely, a life of charity. Whenever any non-Catholic (Orthodox, Protestant, Jew, heathen, etc.) asks me about my faith, I kindly share it with them, and answer any questions, and defend my faith against their objections. Privately, I pray for the conversion of all non-Catholics to the true Faith, and true Communion.

What should I be doing differently?

When the Church says we should not proselytize the Orthodox, does she really mean that we shouldn't work, charitably, for their conversion? Or, rather, does she mean that we whouldn't evangelize them using deceptive means, as Protestant missionaries often do, giving bad connotations to the word "proselytize"?

When I think of "proselytizing" I think of practices that many Fundamentalist misionaries do, like seting up soup kithcens and relief centers, and providing services on the condition that one attends a church service and/or converts.

To say that we shouldn't wish for the Orthodox to convert seems to me to be going against 2,000 years of orthodox Christian faith and Tradition. I for one cannot imagine a single one of the Church Fathers, East or West, adopting this "I'm OK, you're OK" attitude to any schismatic body, no matter how much in common they share with the true Church.

Maybe you would not get insulting responses if you didn't ask questions in an insulting manner. The JPII has said that the separation between Catholics and Orthodox cannot be called even a schism, so why do you call the Orthodox schismatics? Separated bretheren is much more charitable and in my opinion accurate.

anastasios

Can you show me where he's actually said this? I see this claimed many times, but never any documentation.

I do know the official teaching of the Catholic Church, as found in the Catechism of the Catholic Church[/i] [vatican.va] :

So, according to official Catholic teaching, the Orthodox are indeed materially schismatic. Whether or not any individual is a formal schismatic only God knows, of course.

I agree that in some contexts it may not be prudent or charitable to refer to them as "schismatic." I used it in my title to make it clear what exactly I meant by the word "Orthodox."

Actually Pope John Paul II has written (in Ut Unum Sint) that even the expression "separated brethren" is not to his taste, so to speak.
One should not "proselytize" anyone - because that verb has come to mean the use of improper methods in seeking to persuade people. Such methods include financial or political inducements, force and violence, taking advantage of a temporary weakness with extraneous causes, and so forth.
When I saw the topic, I automatically assumed that "schismatic Orthodox" referred to various groups claiming to be Eastern Orthodox but unrecognized by what one might loosely describe as the Orthodox mainstream. But on reading the postings, I see that this expression in this thread is meant to apply to all of Eastern Orthodoxy. Such a mis-use of the term "schismatic" is neither accurate nor appropriate.
As to working for the full unity of Orthodoxy with the Catholic Church, there are two distinct approaches: the effort to convince individuals to do this on an individual basis, and the effort to encourage those within Eastern Orthodoxy who genuinely wish to bring this rather pointless division to a complete end. Incognitus

Dear PaxTecvm,

I believe that it was the Holy Father that said that the fullness of faith is found in both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches.

Are we Orthoox, in schism? Perhaps yes and perhaps no. We are in schism from the seat of Peter and the Apostolic First among Equals. However, you too are in schism, from your brother Patriarchs. To return to the original one Holy and undivided catholic church, the synergy of all the Patriarchs of the early church must be in place. To deny this is to deny history.

Praying with your great, saintly, and most holy Pope, John Paul II, that we may be united once again...

In Christ,
Alice

Of course, Orthodox are quite free to try and convert Eastern Catholics, so there is a double standard.

Dear Orthodox Student,

I don't understand your post.

Orthodox should not 'convert' their Byzantine Catholic brethren.

'Convert' them to what?

..to not being in communion with the Seat of Peter, the first Among Equals, but rather to be in communion with the rest of the Patriarchs.

WHY? As far as the original Patriarchs go, we are both seperated and estranged sisters.

In Christ,
Alice

Documentation, please? The Holy Father has clearly said the fullness of faith is found in both East and West; he has never said, to the best of my knowledge, that the fullness of faith is found in what is today called the "Orthodox Church."

Indeed, what precedent is there, in 2000 years of Catholic Tradition, of saying that more than one Church posesses the fullness of the faith? (I don't mean "Church" in the sense of autnomous ritual sui iuris bodies, but in the sense of the "Universal" Church.)

I think that Incognitus is right on target about all this. It's not that we Catholics aren't supposed to try to convert the Orthodox, but that we are to use charitable means in doing so.

Dear PacTecvm,

You sound like some of my Orthodox brothers.

I do not like arguing with them because God and our Lady, the Most Holy Mother of God, have clearly spoken to my heart, and I see the love He has for each lung of His Most Holy and Immaculate Body, the Church. I work for Him, not for my fundamentalist Orthodox brethren, in seeking, praying, and bringing conciliarity and LOVE between RC's and Orthodox. Unfortunately, their kind of religion, is not real Orthodoxy, but self love. Their love is not for Christ, but for the arrogance of believing that their way is the only way, and that everyone else is a heretic. I have heard that there are such people also in your church.

I am sorry that I don't have documentation for what your most Holy Father, John Paul II said. I do know that his heart truly desires union, and to this effect I have sent him a letter, and received a letter back affirming this most holy desire of his.

However, if he has stated that fullness of the faith is in both the East and the West, and you believe that he did not include Orthodoxy in this statement, then I ask you, in all fairness, and defense of my Church, where is the difference?

Fullness of faith, as I have understood it in the context of your most holy Church, is in the sacraments, and most especially the Holy Eucharist, which is the real presence of our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ. Where, my brother in Christ, therefore, do you find a difference? Surely you know that the Orthodox Church believes in the same seven sacraments (mysteria, in the East). Surely you know that the Byzantine Catholics are Orthodox in faith traditions?

Your assertion that there is fullness of faith in the Byzantine Catholic church (which for all practical purposes, are Orthodox in communion with Rome) but not in the Orthodox Church is faulty.

What, my dearest Catholic brother in Christ, is truly your beef with the Orthodox?

Forgiving your insulting statement in the spirit of our Lord,

In Christ,
Alice

P.S. You will find that this is not the forum to be polemical. Rather this forum serves the purpose of propogating Eastern Traditions, of which my Orthodox brethren share with the Byzantine Catholics, and of bringing in a loving and respectful manner, posters of the different faith traditions together to share. After all, there is no schism in Heaven!

This is not a double standard, in my opinion. As has been pointed out here in the past, the view that Catholics have of Orthodox "officially" is not the view that Orthodox have of Catholics "officially". To the Orthodox, everyone outside of the Orthodox Church is, at best, doubtful as far as "being in the Church" goes. So, if there are non-Orthodox around, there wouldn't be a problem from the Orthodox perspective in evangelising them with an eye toward conversion, whether they're Buddhists or Byzantine Catholics. However, if a Catholic attempts to do so with an Orthodox, they are evangelising someone who, from the official Catholic perspective, belongs to a particular Church with valid sacraments, valid apostolic succession, etc. I suppose if Rome held the same view of non-Catholics that Orthodox have of non-Orthodox, this wouldn't be a problem because everyone would be free to evangelise whomever. That the official situations between the Churches are as they are does not speak to a double standard, but to a different standard.

Hooray Alice - thank you for that

Anhelyna -- the Eastern tilted Latin

Mor Ephrim and Alice are both correct and I would like to thank them for keeping the true nature of this fourm.

Wait a minute here. I recall there being many Orthodox Churches who signed on to the Balamand Agreement as well. I thought the whole jist of that agreement was the mutual recogntion that all three Churches are valid and have a right to exist and be free from proselytism.

As for Pax Tecum's question: I think he needs to quit the polemics here. No one is impressed because we've heard it all before (from all three sides). The words of the Pope and the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church are clear. If Pax Tecum has a beef with this teaching I think he needs to take it up with his Church leaders and not with us. Let's not play games here, proselytism means just this. The definition of this word is very plain, it means to convert someone from one religion to another. This is why it is widely reported that H.H. John Paul II disuaded the Macedonian Orthodox from restoring Communion with Rome. As Alice said, H.H. seeks a restoration of unity between the Church's two-lungs not the conversion of one lung into the other.

In Christ's Light,
Ghazar

PaxTecvm,

Your original post in this thread is very insulting. It is immediately clear that the reason you are treated poorly on other forums is because you yourself are rather insulting in how you post. Might I suggest that you will make more friends when you ask questions politely instead of starting off with extreme negativity? When you enter a room with guns blazing you should not be surprised when people object.

PaxTecvm wrote: What exactly do we Catholics mean when we say that we shouldn't proselytize Orthodox?

To proselytize is to induce someone to convert to one�s own religious faith. Since the Catholic and Orthodox Churches hold almost everything in common the Catholic Church asks its members not to attempt to seek to get Orthodox Christians to break communion with the Orthodox Church in order to establish communion with the Catholic Church. The Catholic Church has further stated that the communion that needs to be re-established is among Churches, not one person at a time. To accomplish the restoration of full communion the Catholic and Orthodox Churches have established an official dialogue.

PaxTecvm wrote: Basically I'm wondering: What should I be doing differently with Protestants, that I'm not supposed to do with Orthodox?

You should treat your Orthodox friends as if they were Catholics. You should not seek to get them to break communion with Orthodoxy to establish communion with the Catholic Church. You should share your faith with them, answer any questions that they might have and respect that they might have some opinions that are different (or at least expressed differently). You should then pray that the Lord will bless both the Catholic and Orthodox Churches and lead them to reestablish the full communion with has been lost.

PaxTecvm wrote: Documentation, please? The Holy Father has clearly said the fullness of faith is found in both East and West; he has never said, to the best of my knowledge, that the fullness of faith is found in what is today called the "Orthodox Church."

Actually he has, just in the same words you have chosen. If you are interested in learning the mind of the Church on this matter I second incongnitus� suggestion of reading Ut unum sint [vatican.va] . I also recommend reading Orientale Lumen [vatican.va] .

You can also check out the Catholic Catechism which states that: �With the Orthodox Churches, this communion is so profound �that it lacks little to attain the fullness that would permit a common celebration of the Lord�s Eucharist�� (837)

PaxTecvm wrote: Indeed, what precedent is there, in 2000 years of Catholic Tradition, of saying that more than one Church posesses the fullness of the faith? (I don't mean "Church" in the sense of autnomous ritual sui iuris bodies, but in the sense of the "Universal" Church.)

No one has suggested that more than one Church possesses the fullness of the faith. What the Catholic Church is teaching is that the existing communion with Orthodox Church is so profound that its membership is almost perfect and there is only a little lacking to keep us from sharing in a common celebration of the Lord�s Eucharist. This membership is a matter of degrees, not something that either is or isn�t.

PaxTecvm wrote: I think that Incognitus is right on target about all this. It's not that we Catholics aren't supposed to try to convert the Orthodox, but that we are to use charitable means in doing so.

This is incorrect. We are to respect the Orthodox and treat them as fully Catholic. The Catholic Church is quite clear that the job of reestablishing full communion is to come at the level of Churches, not at the level of individuals.

I highly recommend that PaxT spend some time praying over the documents I have linked before posting again.

Admin

I think it's idealistic fiction to say that the Orthodox share the same faith we Catholics do. That only depends on which particular Orthodox Christian you happen to be talking to at a given moment. There are many who consider Catholicism to be heretical for doctrines such as the Immaculate Conception, Purgatory, papal primacy of jurisdiction, etc.

Yes, some Orthodox are able to work the above teachings into an Eastern framework, but the Orthodox Church as a whole is nowhere near this, and we're fooling ouselves if we say otherwise.

What am I to do when an Orthodox tells me that his priest says artificial birth control is OK? Refuse to tell him that he is wrong, and that the use of such brth control is sinful? Refuse to show him the Truth? What about when he tells me that the Holy Father holds only an honorary primacy? Refuse to share the truth about that with him as well? Refuse to show him the Scriptural and Traditional foundations for our Catholic beliefs?

That's not charitable at all, guys. And, as I noted before, I challenge anyone to find me one statement from the Church's Tradition, in the last 2000 years, that says we should shy away from sharing the True Faith with anyone.

I'm not saying I actively "target" Orthodox for conversion. But I pray for the conversion of all to the True Faith, and I will defend the Catholic faith against any who attack it; I don't care what church they belong to.

I've read Orientale Lumen, and don't see where it supports any of what has been said, namely, that the Orthodox posess the fullness of the true Faith.

I haven't read Ut Unum Sint, but plan on doing so soon.

Meanwhile, I'd appreciate any documentation you could provide suppoting your views. So far I have seen absolutely none. I know the Orthodox are in closer communion than Protestants; ultimately, however, "close enough" doesn't cut it.