www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization Byzan. Population Drops Significantly?

Just ruminating:

1. Pope John Paul is right when he insists that we reclaim our Eastern heritage with determined step. I think integrity is the essential element to our growth. Who would be attracted to a Church clearly can't figure out what it is. I don't know why some of our priests carry the moniker "Monseignor". From what Eastern tradition does this derive? I applaud those churches that are removing the kneelers and some are even removing pews, but not many have moved in this area. I applaud the fact that most Byzantine Churches, I think, are singing the chants. (I'm still looking forward to the day when we reclaim the holy kiss is some of our Churches.) These and so much more speak to a reclaimation of our Eastern integrity. I think it will bode well for our future but it will also have a positive effect upon Latin Catholics who are aware of us, I would think. Perhaps we can encourage them to live with more integrity as they see our example.

The greatest thing we need to do is to reclaim the married priesthood. That still remains as the unacknowledge elephant in the living room.

2. We really do need new strategies for establishing new congregations. The raw numbers of congregations are somewhat encouraging at least compared with what they were. But given the vitality of BC's members I've come to know I see no reason why we can't encourage these faithful people to help get some mission stations going.

In some areas Churches need to be combined. I should think three congregations is often better than two. Why? Because three opinions on a matter will wear out those who have a penchant for negativity. Or put another way, it is easier for two to fight than it is for three. But that only addresses a small part of the issue. The larger issue is the establishment of new churches where people are.

3. We need more dedicated priests and deacons. If I were to guess, unless we cease to exist in the next 20 years, several priests and deacons will come out of our parish alone. Let us make sure that our Eparchies and their leaderships are ready to receive them. Too often good priestly candidates have been discouraged in the past. Part of it had to do with the sex scandals, which now seem to have subsided, and part had to do with bishops reluctant to lead. The Eparchy of Parma seems to have good leadership. Let us encourage all of our bishops to continue to step forward.

Look if we are destined to be martyred for the cause of unity let us go out with heads held high for the cause of Christ. Let us go out growing not whining.

Dan Lauffer

All,

What's the average number of parishioners in a Byzantine Parish (USA)?

If I remember correctly OLPH in Albuquerque has 200 members with about 100 attending Sunday Divine Liturgy.

Paul

The Byzantine-Ruthenian mission was in Kenosha, about 45 minutes or so away from Milwaukee, and not even part of the same metropolitan area.

The two Milwaukee churches began as ethnic parishes. St. George's Melkite church has a strong Middle Eastern feel, while St. Michael's Ukrainian Catholic Church is even more thoroughly Ukrainian.

The Kenosha church was the only one that didn't present a strong ethnic identity, and that's not only reflective of the de-ethnicization of the Byzantine Ruthenian church, but a result of the relative newness of this particular congregation.

Having been to all three, they are all very different worship experiences. A merger of three such diverse churches would likely lead to more schism than unity.


--Tim

Tim,
Thank you for the reply and this makes much sense.

I would also suggest that this is why Hritzko's idea for a Ruthenian-Ukrainian Church will not work.


David, the Byzantine Catholic

Hmmm,

But Teen, our particular BC Churches were in communion with the Original Mother Church (Orthodox).

So this poses an interesting dilemna. Are Eastern Catholics "better off" joining an RC parish or an EO parish when no EC parish is available? There are certainly positives and negatives for making either choice.

Dan,

the title, "Monsignor", was given by our eparchs in imitation of the Latin Church to those priests they wanted to recognize for past service to the Church. It is an honorific title. Our previous eparch, Bishop George, Emeritus of Van Nuys, broke with "tradition" and restored the Eastern honorific of "archpriest" and "archimandrite", prior to the so-called Instruction of 1996, which called upon the Eastern Catholic Churches to stop using Latin honorifics. By and large it is the elder clergy that possess the Latin honorifics.

I agree with that. While it makes great sense on paper to have one American Byzantine Church, there are historical reasons why it won't work (probably until the existing Eastern Catholic churches dwindle down to a precious few and they band together just to survive).

And Hritzko's actually right that the Rusyn thing doesn't fly anymore. We now have a couple generations of people who think they're something called "Byzantine" and that definitely isn't Ukrainian. The historical division of sub-Carpathian Ruthenians and Galician Ukrainians has been replaced by this one.

The Ukrainian Catholics have retained a much stronger ethnic identity than the mostly homogenized Byzantine-Ruthenians, whose ethnicity doesn't go beyond the occasional pirohy dinner. It's been, historically, a short march from this non-ethnic Byzantine identity to assimilation into the larger Roman Catholic American culture.

Obviously, assimilated Byzantines are not going to embrace what is now a completely foreign Ukrainian Catholic identity. Will Ukrainians give up their ethno-religious identity in favor of a de-ethnicized Byzantine-American one?

I don't think so.

--Tim

Tim,

How would you evaluate what we are doing at Annunciation in Homer Glen? Are our attempts more artificial than real? My request is a serious one. It has only been four years since I knew of the existence of Eastern Catholic Churches and only three years since I've been one. My filter is rather porous, if you catch my drift?

Dan L

Dan,

My opinion of Annunciation is filtered through my experience in growing up in St. Mary's in Chicago.

As both a strong adherent to our Byzantine church's Carpathian tradition and its ancient Byzantine heritage, I find Annunciation to be a beautiful spiritual haven. Father Tom Loya's iconography is stunning. The dozen or so times I've attended his liturgies, I've been very impressed with his pastoral skills. If I lived closer than 2 hours away, I'm sure I'd be there every week.

But there are folks. originally from St. Mary's in Chicago describe the church as "a Hindu temple."

It's definitely not "our" style, if you're talking about the Carpathian roots of our church in America. And the diocese of Parma's handling of the retirement of St. Mary's veteran pastor, the late Father John Kurty, and the closing of St. Mary's aliented lots of other folks.

But that's how our people have always been. That's why schisms occurred over various issues through the 20th Century. It's why some parishoners of the old St. Mary's now attend Orthodox, Roman Catholic and even Ukrainian Catholic churches.

Dan, you often talk about reclaiming "our" traditions. But for almost a century -- beyond the lifespan of most people now living -- our traditions have included pews and the rosary and other things that those who haven't grown up in our tradition see as latinizations. To cradle Byzantines, these latinizations are part of who they are.

Despite all the talk of evangelization on this site, it has never been part of this particular church's tradition, at last not since Cyril and Methodius's day. And it seems strange to talk about bringing in new people, when it's the rank and file who are allowed to drift away -- or even pushed away.

In reclaiming our traditions, it's important to understand that term means different things to different people. Changing things -- even to return to some form of purity -- will alienate some of the faithful.

--Tim

Tim, your are exactly right. If we can't effectively evangelize "in house", how are we to expect new "converts" to join a church that can't keep it's younger generation from abandoning their ancestral church? We must reach our childern while they are in their high school years and teach them to have a deep love and respect for their Byzantine Catholic tradition.

Ung-Certez

Gentlemen,

I think I'm about to take strong exception to what you are writing. In effect you are saying "to hell with new people. If we must die we must die if it means change of any kind, even if the change is a reclamation." What good does it do any Church to retain comfort if it means oblivion for the Church and that no one hears the Gospel outside of you and me? I suspect you would be happy if all of the converts went away just so long as no one was offended with the status quo even if the Church died with the last 90 year old lady.

Father Kurty asked to be relieved even though he was asked to remain on. All the rumors about an 80 year old priest being shoved out seem to me to be justifications for running off when people are needed and whining over change.

I know I'm new but I rather resent whiners because I've seen so many of them over the years.

Dan Lauffer

Ung-Certez,

Please, help me understand how your post had any thing to do with Tim's. I suspect we have more youth in Church along with young families than most of the Churches in the archeparchy. How has the reclamation of our heritage driven away our young people. I would suspect that the reason some young people leave is because some of our Churches have retained the Latinization precisely at the expense of our youth.

Dan,

I don't hink Tim or Ung are saying to hell with converts. The point being made is that converts should not expect to turn their parish into a "more Orthodox than the Ecumenical Patriarch" parish no matter how many cradle Byzantines this alienates. Restoring tradition is one thing, inserting ROCOR style rigorism into a Byzantine Catholic parish is another. I can appreciate and admire what Annunciation Parish has done. However, I can say with certainty that if the same thing were done in many parishes in Pittsburgh it would result in the loss of parishioners who would not be able to understand or change regardless of the amount of catechesis given.

Fr. Deacon Lance

The truth or falsehood of these rumors is not the issue. The fact that they exist, and have driven people to leave a parish is what is crucial. It is important to understand that change of any kind, even a perceived change, can drive away a larger chunk of our people than evangelization can ever make up for.

It doesn't mean I'm opposed to change. But how people respond is key in determining how to manage necessary change. And I have faith in Father Loya's abilities. He represents both the tradition of his priestly family and the understanding of our church in a modern context.

--Tim Cuprisin

The Byzantine Catholic Metropolia won't survive if we let our childern leave in droves as is the case over the last twenty years. While it is good to be "ultra-orthodox", we also should be concerned with building up our churches from within. If we don't keep our childern, we won't survive. I bet that we lost over 80% of our young adults because they were never encouraged to be different and never learned to make sacrifices in order to maintain their adherence to a Byzantine Catholic parish. They would rather attend the RC church that is within 5 miles instead of driving an hour or more to attend a Byzantine parish.

Ung-Certez

I think what you say is probably so.

The key is to differentiate Byzantines from the Roman Catholic counterparts. You and I already know that for us it is better to be Byzantine, we have this fantastic liturgy, beautiful temples and wonderful theological expressions.

To get to the temple I think I drive right by five RC parishes at least. I was not born to the church.

If we don't want the young people to quit we have to give them something to look forward to. Dynamic change does that.

But I really and truly believe that young people latch on to causes, for one thing they want to make a difference and accomplish things.

If the whole parish gets behind a renewal effort the young people will be right there putting out 200% effort. It's actually the change that stimulates pride! Young parents get motivated and pass that enthusiasm on to the children.

But it has to be a genuine cause, not just "more of the same". People get the message that it's just a phoney exercise and lose interest.

I know in my heart that we need to differentiate ourselves and struggle for that, it's the resistance to change that makes old people comfortable and kills parishes.

Michael