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Greetings All,

I would like to have a discussion here about what we can do about the vocation situation in the Byzantine church. Now, let us not get into wheather we should be formed in Latin Seminaries or some other place, I think we have done that before. I am a very practical guy, what can we do to make the situation better, the present situation, that means no married guys. I don't agree, but we can do nothing about that now can we.

Is this, perhaps, the answer?

http://www.catholicnews.com/data/stories/cns/20021008.htm

LR,

A worthy topic in itself but I don't think that is what Peter had in mind.

Admin

Dear Brother Preble,

The Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church has many vocations in Ukraine - too many, one might say!

We have plenty of married priest vocations as well right here.

I may be simplifying things, but I think a good part of the problem in the Ruthenian Church is the big question mark with respect to married candidates getting ordained.

One problem I immediately saw, as someone literally surrounded by Presbyteras , was that when the issue of married candidates to the priesthood in the Ruthenian Church comes up, some of you immediately get on the topic of their "worthiness."

Is the worthiness of celibate candidates assumed by you?

Alex

Br. Peter begins his thread with the typical Latin assumptions for "real" vocations: (1) the take-it-or-leave-it mandatory celibacy rule and (2) ignoring proper formation for Byzantine clergy within the context of our patrimony. These two factors ARE on the minds of everyone and have been issues of discussion when considering vocations and their formation. Removing the discussion on vocations from these two noticable problem areas makes such a discussion futile, if not useless.

Education outside that context is fine. There are not many Byzantine academies offering classes and/or degrees in our theological tradition. But being formed in the context of a Latin formation program is different. Been there, done that. It doesn't work. Byzantine theology becomes nothing but a Supplementary Catholicism. We run the risk of becoming a bag of Catholic Oreos: "real" Catholicism (Latin) in the inside and "supplemental" Catholicism (Byzantine) on the outside. This can only affirm the classic misnomer "Roman Catholics of the Byzantine Rite."

I think an open discussion WITHOUT Br. Peter's two restrictions would be better. No reason to continue playing the "Mommy, may I" game. Simply stating that there is nothing we can do about the celibacy rule is simply hogwash.

Alex,

With his being a member of the Romanian Church, Br. Peter probably cannot speak to the Ruthenian situation.

As far as the vocations to the priesthood are concerned, I propose the following for consideration. They are in no particular order.

First, parishes need to supply vocation for their continued existence. So if a parish has not supplied a vocation to the priesthood, no resident priest can be assigned, when the pool of available priests shrinks further. Along with this it becomes encumbent upon the hierarchy to make the decision not to use bi-ritual priests for the reasons Joe T has presented.

Second, parishes need to educate parents as to their role in providing those vocations. We need to learn "to tithe" our children as well as our finances. Children are our gifts to the Church.

Third, our bishops and priests need to be involved with the process of calling men to the priesthood in a more informal way. Speaking to a number of priests and deacons, I discovered a number of pursued their vocation because the bishop or priest commented that they should become a priest or deacon. This was done not in some formal setting, but in an informal gathering. In my own situation, the then Bishop of Van Nuys, George Kuzma, asked me to consider the diaconate after a First Friday Fish Fry at our parish.

Fourth, we need some direction from our hierarchs regarding dispensing the celibacy issue for presbyteral ordination. How long have we had our particular law?

John

Slava Isusu Christu!

Give me 10 years and i will be ordained a Byzantine Catholic Capuchin Franiscan Priest.
In Greece.

From: Daniel
In The Holy+Theotokos

Dear Bisantino,

I think all four of your points are valid. I think they can be paired together. Parish vocations will come based on encouragement and support from the families in the parish. However, ruling out bi-ritual priests might increase the difficulty of establishing new mission parishes.

The informal approach by a Bishop to a candidate would seem to be the way move toward married priests. The candidate and the Bishop would have to figure out how to get the man to move to Pittsburgh for study and still take care of his family obligations. This will probably require a very indivivualized approach, depending on the wife's career prospects and the children's needs.

The first married candidates are likely to be older men, who have raised their children and can relocate more easily.

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

Very true. I know in Southeastern Pennsylvania Byzantine Catholic Mission Parishes have not only been established, but thrived because of bi-ritual Priests. Specifically the Byzantine Catholic Mission in Hilltown and the Byzantine Catholic Church at 24 and South in Philadelphia. Also in Olyphant the UGCC and Byzantine Catholic Churches have been sharing duties for years. But I also agree that the partnership should be kept Byzantine Catholic.

Bisantino John makes good sense. John P & OD follows with comments about doing studies at Pittsburgh with family. We should consider the possibility, I say the possibility, that when our bishops get off the fence and make a decision and permit married priests that seminary studies, if done at Pittsburgh, be done while they are still young, already have a college degree (never know when you'll need it administering a tiny parish while needing additional income from some tent-making job), and remain single until after completing theological studies. Several seminarians from our churches on the other side of the pond tell me that marriage during studies is not permitted and that they must wait until they are complete. But if our bishops make a decision tomorrow on accepting men who intend to marry before ordination and after completing studies, it will take four to eight years to start getting ordinations and filling the vacant parishes or sending them out to missions. I believe the church can make allowances for those candidates who are mature and educated enough to handle priestly ministry until a regular, up-front, open, "we now offer married priesthood" ministry is actually offered and promoted.

But promoting vocations is easier than one may think - as Bisantino Juan tells us. Gott watch them fish fries!

What is wrong with going up to some man in the parish and telling him that you think he should consider some form of ministry, deaconate or priesthood? Pious humility may prevent some from considering it, thinking it is for others. But if a number of parishioners convey that they think that someone should seriously look into it (in the spirit of popular axios), then some may get to thinking. What would a man think if several families got together and told him that they will sponsor his studies for a year (deaconate or priesthood) to see if it was really for him? How about grabbing those men who just finished their college degree - or about to - and offering them the same?

Another proposal is positive peer pressure.

I am the catechist for the 7th and 8th grade. Instead of following the book, we had a discussion on this vocation issue. It was quite surprising to find out that a number of the boys have thought about the priesthood but are a bit timid or unsure. One boy thought God would reveal the call through a major tragedy in his life. One of the girls stated that her brother has thought about it, but she said, "my brother, yeah, right".

We opened the bible to Mark's Gospel (3:21) where Jesus' relatives thought he was out of his mind. The discussion centered on encouraging their peers who are discerning a priestly or monastic vocation rather than thinking them odd.

John

Joe T,

I find it hard to believe that I have typical Latin assumptions, since I am not Latin, anway, lets see what we can do.

What, in your mind, is the proper formation for Byzantine clergy within the context of our patrimony?

As far as your first point, unless your a bishop, and I don't know it, there is nothing we or you can do about the celibacy thing right now.

When was the last time you were educated in a latin seminary, recently, last year, 10 years?

As I have mentioned on several occasions on this board, the program that we have here in Boston is not the best, but it is getting the job done. I am a big supporter of education for the clergy. I am not sure how much time you have in pastoral settings, but there are many questions being asked by the people right now, that a non educated priest would have a very hard time answering. Perhaps where your from, you don't mind a superficial religious experience, but I feel that our people need something more than just a touchy feely type of thing.

The mission parish that I am assigned to shares space with the Romanian Orthodox parish. The priest is a wonderful, holy man, married by the way, but his theology is very weak, and his people do not have the slightest idea about many things. They feel that if they sit downstairs and drink coffee while liturgy is going on, then they have been to liturgy.

I realize that we have a crisis, but I do not think that means we should short change our people by sending people out, married or not, who are not prepared. Minsitry is very difficult, and if you do not have the right preparation, academic, spiritual, human, pastoral, then they guy will leave or, God forbid, his people leave.

If we are going to be with Rome, then we have to play by all the rules, not just the ones we like. I wuld suggest you read the Apostolic Exhortation, by our Pope, Pastores Dabo Vobis, and also the documents by, our US Bishops conference regarding the formation of the clergy.

What I was looking for was how do we get more young people, and I will admit that we need a married clergy, interested in the life and ministry of the priest? If we can answer that question, then the rest will take care of itself.

Well, off to my "take-it-or-leave-it, Latin assumption, overerly academic, seminary studies.

Pace Domnului

Peter

Dear Brother Peter,

"I am a big supporter of education for the clergy."

Me too, but are you confusing academic education with formation?

"I am not sure how much time you have in pastoral settings,"

I learned early on to watch where I sit in pastures. Learned my lesson while visiting my uncle's farm in Marstellar, PA.

"but there are many questions being asked by the people right now, that a non educated priest would have a very hard time answering."

There's nothing more dangerous than good intentions combined with stupidity.

"Perhaps where your from, you don't mind a superficial religious experience,"

Only in my seminary days, but only for a few moments here and there. Then I sobered up. A few tough nights at the college pub, ya know.

"but I feel that our people need something more than just a touchy feely type of thing."

Who is suggesting that?

"I do not think that means we should short change our people by sending people out, married or not, who are not prepared."

Who is suggesting that?

"If we are going to be with Rome, then we have to play by all the rules..."

Then there is to be no discussion further than what the US Bishops Conference decides for us. Like the Gospel lesson, we are to become circumcised unto the Law of the Latin Church first. Good luck in your studies.

I should probably remind you that the two problems are: (1) proper formation, which includes academics, in the context of our patrimony and (2) addressing the imposed mandatory celibacy law - as we consider vocations.

Joe

Joe,

It seems to me we agree moret han we disagree, and that is a good thing.

"Me too, but are you confusing academic education with formation?"

The way I look at the formation process, and perhaps it is my latin again, but I think that formation needs to be intergrated. Academic, pastoral, spiritual, and human. All four need to be intergrated in the formation process. Thank goodness the program is not heavy on academics, or I would be bagging groceries at the supermarket. I think the program, as it is laid out, is very intergrated.

I think that we need a married clergy, as I stated before, the question then comes, how can they do it? I think you need to be at a seminary, in residence, to make it work.

Holy Cross, here in Boston, has mostly married people preparing for ministry. They have housing for them, and they are actually considering starting a school for the kids right on campus. I think something like that could be worked out, or why not just use either Holy Cross of St. Vlad's, a wonderful place by the way.

Anyway, lets keep chatting.

Peter

What it all boils down to is the fact that celibacy is the ultimate Latinization of some Eastern Catholics (i.e. Ruthenian Metropolia)here in North America. If Rome wants us to be true to our Eastern patrimony, it needs to come out and say it is o.k. for all Eastern Catholic particular churches in north America to ordain married men! Case closed!!

Ung-Certez