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I think that Stuart needs a time out until he learns how to speak with respect.

I've often wondered why we don't cooperate with the Ukrainians more.

Administrator,

I don't know if Stuart needs a "time out" or not, but his comments remind me of a humorous incident, which calls to mind one of Stuart's core competencies.

A few years back, my wife and I were sponsored to attend the National Association of Pastoral Musicians convention in Pittsburgh, PA. On the Wednesday of that week, a Byzantine vesper service was to be celebrated at the local Ukrainian Catholic church in town. But because of the great number of people who signed up to go the vesper service was relocated to our Cathedral in Munhall. While hitching a ride with my wife on the bus filled with Dr. Vladimir Morosan's impromptu choir members (including my wife), our bus driver got kinda lost on the south side while looking for our cathedral on the scanty directions he received. How did we finally discover its location as it sat down the drive behind some greenery? Easy. The big BINGO sign at the entrance gave it away! Everyone yelled on the bus for the bus driver to stop. "Stop!" we all said, "This must be the place! 'Cause there is a BINGO sign, therefore they must be Catholic!" Everyone busted out laughing. He had to back up almost 100 feet before being able to steer into the drive. Thank God for our core competency of BINGO, because if it wasn't for that big sign (we never noticed any onion domes or church signs) we would have missed vespers for the Feast of Vladimir.

As for "outsourcing" to the Orthodox programs, my pastor earned his doctorate with the Antiochians approved by our former bishop. Currently, a few more folks are attending Orthodox programs, including the one I just mentioned.

As for the core competency of pirohis, I've discovered that more will show up at times to make pirohis rather than attend Pre-Sanctified Liturgy. This is sad.

Actually Alex, I'll take "varenyky" instead of that other Polonized term...

It goes back to the Kyivan Patriarchate issue. It really could be a means for a much more unified and strengthened Slavic Greek Catholic church worldwide.

And as pointed out sooo many times, the hypernationalisms that exacerbated the ethnic splits after the death of Kyr Soter in the USA are now history. We were a semi-united Greek Catholic Church at one time in the US. We really do need to pool resources and talents - look at what St. Vladimir's did for Orthodox academic studies. They have cross-jurisdictional faculty.

On a tangent - anyone catch Patriarch Lubomyr's remarks placing some of the problems with the current ecumenical situation squarely on Rome? Vitaemo Patriarshche!

Slava Isusu Christu!

Dear friends,

I would only agree to unity if Father Elias was made one of our Bishops.

Some worthy questions. Church cooperation, the ethnic question, and the ecumenical task are rightly some of the recurring discussions on this board. However our Brother Peter asked for constructive ideas about vocations in the Byzantine Church.

This also is an urgent question. Surely we might be able to come up with some positive, forward looking, ... even visionary ideas? I remember the video that the seminary in Pittsburgh produced a few years ago, as they began a fund raising programme. I shall never forget the closing sentence from the late Metropolitan Judson. He said, without vocations, without seminarians to serve our Church as priests, our Church would be in "grave difficulty".

I do not think we are far from being there. What is the way of the future?

Bisantino offered some good suggestions. But one of these sounded like the "nomination" programme initiated a couple of years ago. It was a concentrated structure of prayer, discernment, (a special icon) and ended with identifying vocation candidates. Sadly, it seemed that this brought forward no one!

Are there others programmes we might try? Are there other programmes which work? Can our Brother Peter's question be answered?

Is God not calling? Surely he wants to provide good ministers of the mysteries and servants of the Gospel? Are we as a Church not listening?

There must be a way forward... I hope so, or our late Metropolitan's fears will be realised.

Fr. Elias,

One problem is the dearth of information on vocations. I wouldn't be too surprised if a pole was taken in our parishes with questions about those vocations offered and most would be clueless. I'm not trying to be cynical or negative here, just candid.

We tried that vocation icon and "Called by Name" program, but it soon died. How can one in a parish recommend vocations if they (1) don't know about vocation programs or what it is all about, (2) never met a nun or monk or rarely if ever seen or met their bishop to even think it was worthy to recommend, and (3) it is rarely explained to the people.

Something so serious to be written down on an index card? Who's being serious?

I've posted this many times before: COMMUNICATION. Out of sight; out of mind. And most of the time it is not on anyone's mind.

I cannot help but notice how the Lincoln, Nebraska Diocese recently built their own seminary and it is full. The same goes for the traditional Latin seminary in the same diocesan environs. What is their secret?

I contacted the seminaries and received packets of information explaining it all. They even sent me an application to begin the process of enrolling!!! They mean business and the people are informed what their mission is.

Many parents have given up on recommending a mandatory celibate priesthood to their sons. Some state that they are waiting for the day when married priests are allowed. Many want nothing to do with priesthood for their sons since all the bad publicity about homosexuals and pedophiles have turned them off.

Yet, some churches have high enrollment of seminarians and monks and nuns despite the media publicity of crisis.

I once posted a "positive suggestion" thread with many of my own ideas and observations. I cannot tell you how hard I tried to prevent myself from getting a bit angered. Stuart needed some time off for his comments, according to some, but he is absolutely correct. We fight a lot in our churches. We can't even get our identity straight, no less our grasp for mission and evangelization. Where ARE we headed? Do we know? Any clues? Who wants to be involved in a messy identity crisis?

"Hey, look at them Ruthenians! They've been here 100+ years and they STILL can't figure themselves out!"

Again, I am not being sarcastic, however some may want to interpret it. Our liturgical reforms have hit many over the years like a load of bricks. It is here that I again suggest that we put our liturgical reform gears in "park" and shift to more critical issues: future clergy.

Though greatly needed, many parishioners have been turned off with the now urgency to get back to more orthodox ways. That soured attitude is brewed day in and day out at home thus rubbing off on the minds and conscious of our youth. After graduation, most teens disappear.

The failed attempt to restore optional celibacy for our priests has also took the wind out of the vocation sails. Too many mixed signals and deadening silence.

We can suggest all the positive ideas we want, but before we put on the cologne or perfume, we must clean up. Shoot me for being blunt, but another vocation program won't do the trick. We need to hear from our bishops on many issues.

I've read the above comments. I personally believe that we shall all have to hang together (as noted above) lest we hang separately.

As a moderator, I was somewhat chagrined to note Stuart K's comment about "core competencies". It is, in my opinion, not an appropriate comment about the Ruthenian/Byzantine Church. It lacks the universal charity that should be characteristic of the Church and its members.

There is, unfortunately, a tendency amongst the book-learned to look down upon the more "folksy" practices of the greater community and to highlight these as the "cardinal virtues" of the (real) worshipping parochial community. While the vast majority of our people(s) are not theologically sophisticated, nor, in many cases, college educated, THEY nonetheless are the ones who have preserved the very church which the book-learned venerate. To castigate the folksy ethnicity is inappropriate, because by doing so one denigrates the very people who have kept the faith alive.

While there might be a castle in Spain somewhere where the theological faith is practiced in some sort of angelic purity, here on earth it is inextricably linked to the living, breathing people who constitute the Church. While some might appreciate the Arab/Melkite manifestation, others prefer the Ukrainian or Ruthenian, and some respond spiritually to the Greek paradigm. But there is NO WAY that one can be a Byzantine Christian without being a part of one group or another.

Even if one intends to be an �American Byzantine�, the very organic development of our Church means that it has to have come from somewhere -- and that �somewhere� lies in the various ethnic communities of our ancestors who cared enough to preserve the faith.

If one is offended by pierogies/pyrohi, kielbasa/kolbassy, or Stanky and the Pennsylvania Coal Miners, then perhaps it is time to move on from the Ruthenian community, because this is an integral part of the history and living memory of the community. But one will find no succor among the Ukrainian people for they love the same things (although with different names). Same for the Polski�s. And good luck with the Serbs, Romanians, Albanians or Greeks.

So, unless Orbitz has a special fare to the Castles of Spain, one is stuck in the pedestrian reality of the people in the worshipping Church. And that means pierogi, kolbassi, beer, polkas, and the ever-venerable Chicken Dance.

Blessings!

Dr. John,

With all due respect, I am one of those great-grandsons of Ruthenian immigrants (from Kojsov, Slovakia) who came to work in the coal mines of central PA, and find Stuart's comments hitting square on the nail. Sometimes it takes someone coming from the outside (knowing he was a convert) to say it like it is.

There is time when we have to quit navel-gazing and basing the future of our religion on pirohi recipes. The "hear no evil, see no evil, speak no evil" monkey policy will only kill us. We have problems that need to be addressed ... and quickly.

I know/knew parishes that bulge with numbers for a fish fry but their temples are much less filled (rarely any children). Will the children and grandchildren of the Fish Fry group be around to start new missions?

Tradition is the handing down of the faith. My father learned his bible stories while husking corn on the farmstead while baba told stories. Socials are great, one can get a great bargain on dinners now and then. But if we are better at pinching pieroghis than knowing one's faith, then the evangelicals will beat us to a pulp. The armor and weapons Paul mentions isn't the pot and cookie cutter.

Your comments about educated laity is demeaning if not unfair. Many of those 'academic' folks you find easy to castigate come from those "unedubecated" families. It was that faith inspired piety of their families, parents and grandparents, that often prompted many to learn more. It is a grave mistake to think that those from academia are just mere book-knowledged dolts with sand in their head. Many do offer back to their faith communities their time and their services either by teaching as catechists, leading hymns by cantoring, administering practical aspects of the parish finances, or even pinching pieroghis ... and enjoying it every step of the way.

Greetings All,

I find the continuing argument about families not mentioning the priesthood to their sons because of celabacy thing bunk. I am living in a latin seminary, an the place is full, and guess what, they have the celebacy thing. God is calling, the problem is noone is listening because we keep fighting about the same things.

Another problem I see, as far as getting butts in the seats, is that there are not many dynamic preachers out there. The parishes that are flourishing during liturgy have dynamic preachers and great programs for the kids, yes and fish frys.

This directly relates back to the education question we dicussed before. Preaching is an art. It needs to be taught. Yes its a gift, but it needs to be nurtured. This can;t be done through the mail or over the internet.

We have real problems folks. If we dont get people to come forward, then we wont have to worry abour perogies, or salmale, or anything like that. We will all be singing hymns at the local latin parish.

Peter

"This directly relates back to the education question we dicussed before. Preaching is an art. It needs to be taught. Yes its a gift, but it needs to be nurtured. This can;t be done through the mail or over the internet."

Who is suggesting learning via mail or over the Internet? Did I miss something?

"I find the continuing argument about families not mentioning the priesthood to their sons because of celabacy thing bunk."

Whatever you wish to think. But a bad taste was left in many mouths back ten years ago in our neck of the woods. There is still hope for possible vocations with some who remained. We are working on it. It is not so much parents who aren't mentioning celibate preisthood, but the deadening silence from the non-laity.

This reminds me of Walter E. William's proverbial wisdom: If the servers don't eat at the restaraunt they work at and the cooks don't eat there, what is one to think? The "uneducated" laity in the pew (assuming that the laity are stupid like some may think) sense the unwillingness to promote vocations outside a vocation icon program or not-so-serious called by name program. [Slips were handed out one day and that was that. Here was a great opportunity for the laity to exercise their right for popular proclamation ("Axios!") in their own backyard but the seriousness of it all wasn't sensed. Did they actually feel that their words counted? Was there any follow-up? Was it just another shot in the dark?]

What am I supposed to think when hardly anything is promoted or written about such vocations in our newspapers? What AM I supposed to pray for? Does anyone know who their eparchial seminarians are? Do they know the names and parishes where their deacon-students and candidates are from? Are they made aware of the programs that are out there? Do they know we have a seminary or its whereabouts? Can they name any names of nuns? Do they know at least three names and locations of existing monasteries? Do they know the name of their bishop and where the cathedral is located? If I read the newspaper and only get cut-and-paste journalism [here is our official Byzantine news service: http://www.parma.org/cns.htm ] about other particular churches, then the answer is clear and distinct (to use one philosopher's phrase).

We have to get the word out. It's all about COMMUNICATION, not another blue-ribbon panel. I feel positive about our new church leadership. I feel they have the potential to do much good. Unfortunately, our Metropolia is one of the only particular churches that doesn't have their own official website on this continent.

Stuart�s choice to focus on sarcasm and insult rather than the building up of the Church has rendered his voice to be meaningless. I am saddened that he has chosen to remove himself from the conversation since I think he may actually have something worth saying.

I agree with Joe Thur about the need for better communication in our Church. That is exactly the reason I started this website. The dozen or so e-mails I receive each day with questions about Byzantine Catholicism indicate that people are interested in our witness of Jesus Christ. We, as lay Byzantine Catholics, need to find ways to work with our bishops to build. We�ve had endless conversations about the problems. At some point we need to move the focus from the problem to the solution.

The Latin seminaries that are flourishing are those with a very strong concentration on prayer, liturgy and sound, orthodox Latin theology. At the risk of repeating myself too often, everything flows from the liturgy. We need to make a prayerful, well-celebrated and well-sung liturgy the focus of our parish lives. When we have good liturgy everything else falls into place. Without the celebration of good liturgy not much else is possible.

Admin

I am afraid I have to agree with our friend Joe on this point. Communication is vital and absolutely key to this question. Vocations must be a subject of our preaching and teaching. Of course God calls to the ministry. But the formation of these vocations from the first suggestion of a call is an important ministry and responsibility of ours (i.e. of the whole Church).

I have heard from one source that at the moment there are no new candidates for the priesthood for next year, and that the cut-off date for "first application" the next class of diaconate has passed. Very few have sent in the initial petition for this diaconal formation programme, (so sadly, it will be a much much smaller group than the 1st class), and of course the "discernment" and acceptance process is only beginning for them.

Am I wrong, surely it can't be that God is not calling ministers to serve his people in these days? Is everyone aware that in Pittsburgh a new diaconate formation programme will begin next summer (2003)?

Don't just say there are problems in the Church... so what is new? I dare say, there have been problems in the Church since the apostolic age. The Fathers of the Church were addressing problems, and faced crises of all kinds. To me, problems could just as well encourage vocations, as there is nothing like a challenge to create interest and enthusiasm for being part of a solution. It is complacency we must battle!

If we are "the Church", what can we do? I think it is wrong to put the responsibility on bishops and vocations' directors. They are few, and this is a big country. They have many trials and urgencies to deal with every day. Of course they want vocations, but they are also trying to manage eparchies stretched over vast territories, and very often our vocations' directors are also pastors of busy parishes and on other 'commissions' as well. I am not making excuses for them, but only saying that we can be part of a solution, as much as identifying the crisis and its causes.

This forum is one method of communication about our Church's need and our programmes of formation and education. But of course, it only reaches this forum's good readership. What is the best way to communicate to the rest of our Church? Can we help? How can we adequately communicate this vital need, and positively encourage a generous response to God's call?

Elias

I cannot agree more with our esteemed administrator, on the subject of a renewed prayer life, and a worthy experience of Liturgy. It is from our Liturgy that the 'call' comes. That is true for me certainly, and it was the love of the Liturgy that brought me to serve as a monastic and as a priest. One obvious response to this crisis is a dedication to the authentic renewal and revitalization of our Liturgical experience as monasteries, parishes, and as a Church.

Fr. Elias asked: "Is everyone aware that in Pittsburgh a new diaconate formation programme will begin next summer (2003)?"

Fr. Elias,

Short answer: No. I assume it will start, but nothing official.

Longer answer: To date, I have not seen any literature, announcement, or otherwise in my parish from Pittsburgh or Parma that there will be another deaconate program. I did receive my annual eparchial stewardship appeal form though.

"I think it is wrong to put the responsibility on bishops and vocations' directors."

But what exactly is the job of a church overseer? For things to work efficiently in any organizational endeavor, responsibility must equal authority. Things begin to buckle down when some have all the authority and no responsbility and some who have all the responsibility but no authority.

Many Latin dioceses have lay folks assisting in the application process of vocations (and interviewing candidates) before the bishop ever hears about the applicant. This way nobody has to hear the director complain about being "too busy" with other things to direct. If we don't think going out and beating paths to the doors of potential vocations is important ...