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I'm an American, too, but for reason of my religion (whether I currently practice it or not) and my Slavic blood, my life is in many ways very different from that of the typical "American". And psychologically & spiritually I am very much a Slav, as I would be regardless of in what country I was born, where I make my home, or whose flag I salute.

Your co-religionists in Vojvodina, Serbia & Montenegro don't seem to have a problem with that situation... but I guess since they aren't Americans, you can't possibly compare their situation.

If somehow there was a single worldwide Patriarch for all Byzantine Catholics but who lived outside the USA, would you resist his jurisdiction because he wasn't an American?

I praise your devotion to your historic ethnicity. I respectfully suggest that your daily life is much more similar to the lives those who live in your neighborhood and those you work with than it is to those who live in the historic central and eastern European homelands of our spiritual ancestors.

One can compare the lives of Americans with Canadians and, to a much lesser extent, Mexicans. Or maybe a reasonable comparison is that some of the Caribbean Island nations now are part of the Archdiocese of New York. We really can�t compare our lives to the lives of those living in central and eastern Europe. In some ways it is similar and in others it is vastly different.

The situation in Vojvodina, Serbia & Montenegro has never really been normalized. Can it really stand on it�s own? I�m not sure that the faithful there can really turn their thoughts to diocesan and administrative structures given the horrors they have lived through. Is it still one diocese originally created for all Byzantine/Greek Catholics in Yugoslavia? Do you know the history of the exception for the Byzantine/Greek Catholics in Macedonia who still fall under the Latin Bishop of Skopje even though they technically belong to the Byzantine/Greek Catholic Diocese of Krizevci?

I would embrace his jurisdiction as long as he did not impose upon anyone in North America an ethnicity that was not their own. The topic of where to locate such a patriarch would make a great discussion. I vote for Patriarch Bartholomew of Constantinople but, unfortunately, we are not in full communion with him at the moment. There are also strong arguments to centralize on the Melkite Patriarch. I still like the idea of a Byzantine Catholic Patriarch of Washington, DC. Establishing it would be a normal Eastern progression of our Church.

Adminstrator,

Taft discusses this on pages 58 and 59 of the great entrance. Huculak mentions it briefly as well. Neither of them (Catholics) arrive at the conclusion of Sokol or your former pastor. I don't know what educational background either of those men had but Taft and Huculak and Meyendorff are, AFAIK, still respected. The language issue has been pretty well tackled by Taft.

Was the text changed to make it sing easier? I can't respond to that and probably no one can but I had not heard that notion presented before you presented it in this thread. I guess anything is possible, isn't it? I think it is also possible that Sokol and your former pastor had some anti-Russian bias. If it were as simple as you put forth I would think Taft or Huculak at least would call it to our attention, don't you?

One thing is certain that the "Da ispolnjatsja" as sung by the people (no the one in the books) is interpolated, it was changed to fit the music.

Tony

Then I suggest that you have never met or spent any time with people "our age" from "the historic central and eastern European homelands of our spiritual ancestors." For those who are in college or are college graduates, employed full-time and living in a city, I find that their daily lives are remarkably similar to mine. Except they have satellite TV and I don't (and they are typically more well-traveled too).

Are these the opening sentences of the book?
Very nice. I am riveted.

Dear Lemko Rusyn,

You know I admire, love and esteem the Administrator highly!

And I don't want to get into another debate on the single jurisdiction thing.

But what I feel in my spirit and identity is what you've described so capably here.

Hope for you? What you've said is the basis of all our hope!

Our Church needs people like you in leadership positions - throughout the world.

Alex

Tony,

This may be one of those things we never know. I would not dismiss changing Slavonic texts to make them easier to sing but, given your references, I won�t insist on it.

An anti-Russian bias on the part of my pastor and Sokol is a possibility but I don�t think it is a strong possibility. I know that my former pastor loved choirs. I remember when he discussed this with the choir at practice one night. He simply stated that the words were changed to make them easier to sing and that there was nothing wrong with that.

I�m not sure if Taft or Huculak would call attention to it or not. Yes, it seems likely given the attention they give to other details but it may have not been on their radar scope.

Admin

L-R,

I have met numerous visitors from Europe. Several years ago my pastor hosted a priest and seminarian from Uzhorod for, I think, about a month. I had the privilege of playing �tour guide� and visiting with them on a regular basis. The main thing I remember is that they kept talking about how much different life is in America for Byzantine Catholics than it is in Ukraine. You are correct in that there are elements that are the same the world over. A city boy from Uzhorod will share some things with a city boy from Pittsburgh that a country boy in either country will be unfamiliar with. But they are different cultures and there are great differences in the lives lived. I have not traveled to central or eastern Europe but I have traveled much of the world. I lived and worked in the Mid-East for a bit and was amazed how similar yet how different daily life was. I think that you might not appreciate just how formed you are by our Western, American culture.

Now if they have satellite TV and you don�t that might mean that you may be more Old World then they are, especially if they are spending many hours each day watching the junk that passes for entertainment.

Admin

Alex,

I respect your viewpoint event though I disagree with it. I will ask again. In order for an ethnic Church to sustain itself it continually needs new people to replace the ranks who die or leave for non-ethnic Churches. Where are they going to come from? Does anyone seriously believe that our Church can grow by witnessing ethnicity? If yes, I want to hear the answer. I want to hear how this can be accomplished while at the same time converting our neighbors to Byzantine Catholicism.

I keep asking these questions not to needle people but to get our readers to think and plan for the future of our Church. They do not necessarily need to be responded to.

Admin

Dear Administrator,

Actually, I've written more than 300 pages on this very topic in university . . .

Do you have a few free moments?

Cultural identity as demonstrated a great resilience to redefine itself over time, with or without new immigrants.

If anything, and contrary to expectation, many of our "Fourth Wave" immigrants from Ukraine are quickly assimilating to the English mainstream when they arrive here - some within a couple of years.

I've met such immigrants who almost totally discard any loyalty to Ukrainian identity or community - they say their life is here.

So, you don't have to be born and raised in America to think like an American!

Professor Isajiw of the University of Toronto once identified a total of six different ways in which people maintain ethnocultural identification, two of which involved no language knowledge or active participation in a community at all.

And even if the language issue became problematic, and we Ukies are a long way from that happening, loyalty to the UGCC and the Ukrainian Orthodox Church is still quite strong.

English language liturgies and parishes in our Church are developing organically, on a "user-needs" basis. (As I've said, we have non-Ukie speaking Ukies who know the liturgy in Ukrainian and refuse to go to an "English-only parish" - we have RC's who have learned the Ukrainian liturgy in Ukrainian and who even sing it in choir - as in St Catharine's Sts Cyril and Methodius Church).

As for witnessing to our neighbours, yes, we have the responsibility to witness to Christ in the West.

We have a responsibility to convert people, beginning with ourselves, by making ourselves more deeply spiritual and committed to Christ. As St Seraphim of Sarov (who also recognized Kyiv as his spiritual Mother) said, "Acquire the Spirit of Peace and a thousand souls will be converted around you."

If what you are talking about is the more strident evangelical type of converting - that is fine for the Deep South, but we are western Ukrainians . . .

We are to witness to Christ and we do.

As for getting people to join our Churches, that is largely up to the people whom God calls to His Church, but not necessarily to this or that Church community.

I've known people who have come to Christ through attending services in a Ukrainian Church, but who would rather attend an RC Church, or an Orthodox Church where the language issue is not an issue since the parishes they've attended have English-language services.

In witnessing to Christ, we are not, at the same time, called upon to impose our Church on them if they don't want to join it.

And the reasons they may not want to join it could and do have nothing to do with the cultural issue at all.

My priestly friend of the OCA could have attended English liturgies at our St Demetrius parish to this day if he had wished.

He got hooked on Eastern Christianity through me, without me being intent on converting him , but he preferred the OCA to the UGCC. And the OCA up here is very Old Calendarist and the parish he is attending is quite Russian in cultural outlook. Go figure . . .

That we have the responsibility to preach Christ - there can be no doubt about that.

If people wish to attend our Church's English liturgies - everything possible must be done to accommodate them.

But ultimately there are sufficient church traditions in North America that will allow all potential converts to choose that community they like the best.

I've helped many such get into communities that are not my own, converts who got converted through the UGCC but who felt more comfortable elsewhere - and not simply because of the cultural issue.

I don't think we have a mandate to try and get everyone to join our Church.

We do have a mandate to get them to join with Christ.

I think the two are different things.

And that's ALL I have to say on the matter.

Back to my akathist to the North American Martyrs . . .

Alex

Dear Administrator,
I have no interest in the sort of "ethnic church" you are regularly referring to -- I have no desire to keep anybody anywhere out of any church they feel an attraction to and wish to become a part of.

But to wax philosophical for a moment, what I do want is a church where I feel that "this is one of our churches." I don't look around at faces or survey anyone's ethnic background. I could go to the most "ethnic" church that used more Slavonic than any other parish, had pysanky-making and Slavic-language classes and an annual Slavic festival, but if it didn't have that feeling where you just know that "this is the way we pray", I wouldn't feel that it was my spiritual home.

Likewise, if I had the choice between that sort of parish and another that was absolutely 100% English and had no ethnic events or identity yet I felt that "this is where they pray the way I do and the way my ancestors did", I would choose the all-English, all-American parish for my own.

Oh, would that I had such a choice!

Alex,

Thank you for your thoughts. I�d be interested in seeing your paper on this topic.

Just a couple of points:

-The language issue is already problematic here in the States and has been for some time. The vast majority of people who attend Ukrainian or Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic and Orthodox parishes do not speak fluent Ukrainian. Canada�s emigration from Europe was more recent than that here in America so the problem just isn�t as acute yet. If you suggested that every child born to Ukrainian parents in Canada over the last 30 years was raised with Ukrainian as a first language I would ask you for proof.

-I�m glad you agree that we need to witness to our neighbors. I also agree that we need to first convert ourselves and our parishes. With all due respect, however, the notion of first converting ourselves is too often used as an excuse not to convert our neighbors. We cannot wait for some sort of spiritual perfection before sharing the Gospel since the journey of becoming more and more committed to Christ is a lifelong one. Confession on the lips leads not only to our salvation but the salvation of others.

-Which specific people are I speaking of when I speak of evangelization? Everyone. From the unchurched in the Deep South to the unchurched native people in northern Canada. The couple three doors down from you who are unchurched cultural WASPs to the Pakistani family down the block from me.

-Who does God use to call people to His Church? Us. You, me and the readers of this Forum. We must invite them to join our Church community. We are responsible to issue the invitation. He works on the heart and leads them to where He wants them. To suggest that we should evangelize without issuing an invitation to join our parishes is like inviting someone over for dinner and then suggesting that they should probably eat somewhere else because they might not like what you are serving. Nor can you state that that we are serving holupki but we will begrudgingly fix you a hamburger (some English in the liturgy) to accommodate you and you are not willing to embrace our cultural tastes (Slavic languages). It�s nothing more than a cop out. All of your reasoning is nothing more than just an excuse not to proclaim the Gospel. Strong words, I know, but I believe them to be true.

Admin

I agree! I believe that we need to create parishes that respect all ethnic identities and yet are culturally American. A bit of Greek and Slavonic to keep touch with our spiritual ancestors yet something distinctly appealing to both ethnic folks and to those living in cities and villages all across North America.

Dear Administrator,

Well, I'm glad to see you are less strident about this issue than before!

It sort of rejuvenates my faith in humanity!

But, as a former amateur wrestling champion, I think I can say I've got you pinned down here . . .

First of all, yes, of course, the situation is different in the U.S. with Ukies and other East Slavs.

The U.S. is quite unique as a strongly unicultural melting pot society.

As for "proof," I can only offer you proof of strong, vibrant cultural parishes up here. You are welcome to come and visit any time.

The proof is in the 'putting." And we'll put you right in with the choir so you can look down and see all those Ukie faces singing in Ukie!

I do think that your view of "converting" and "preaching" is a bit tainted with evangelicalism, don't you agree? No? Well, I didn't think you would anyway . . .

Your own Slavic identity comes out loud and clear with you again imputing motive in me that you simply are not in a position to judge, namely, my copping out from witnessing to Christ.

Perhaps I am. I hope not. But even when I help others come into this Church or that, I know that it has nothing to do with me.

Since I can't call on the Administrator here to make an objective judgement call on the matter, I'll have to refer it to a much Higher Court.

The Judge in that Court is very fair, as I am led to believe, and He knows what we do in secret, as opposed to before men .

As long as I'm squared away in my conscience with Him, I'm not too hot and bothered with what even the Administrator of this Forum himself thinks of me or my views .

So, since we await the Administrator of the Heavenly Forum's decision on this, (I love you, but I think He is really Divine!) we can proceed to the point I think I have you pinned down on.

And that is your contention that we somehow have to get people to join specifically OUR Church and, if we don't, that means we've somehow failed.

And, sorry, Sir, we live in a pluralistic society where people may join more than one Church tradition, even . . .even . . . the Latin tradition . . .

If you are saying the UGCC is failing to witness to Christ, please offer some concrete evidence how its martyrs, confessors and vibrant parish life today is somehow failing His Cause.

And don't stop with me. I'm sure His Beatitude would like to hear about it too!

We have English-language liturgies and parishes. Heck, you yourself posted about the Gaelic/Ukie liturgy in Dublin.

But it seems to me that, left to your mainstream ecclesial dictatorship, you would remove the aspect of choice from converts completely in this respect.

If someone came to you and wished to convert to Christ because he heard your beautiful Cantor's voice, would you be upset if that person said, "But I really would like to join the OCA?"

I don't think you would be upset, just as I wouldn't.

And would you feel that you have failed because that person has joined the OCA? Do you think your colleagues fail because members of your English-language BC Church want to join the OCA - and do?

I really think what you are about here is how to increase the ranks of the BCC in the U.S. - a valid pursuit.

I think the sociological issues involved are much more complex than language and cultural issues.

I'd have to study the matter, but I would hypothesize (see what you've done to me? ) that the weakening of cultural identity MIGHT lead to a greater desire to join with Orthodoxy per se since EC churches AS CHURCHES might be perceived as "narrow ethnic enclaves" outside the mainstream.

And the OCA is no ethnic enclave, but a true mainstream Orthodox Church where one has the CHOICE to participate in either mainstream Orthodoxy or else Orthodoxy within a cultural framework.

This needs study, something I don't believe either of us has done sufficiently on this issue, although you are, by far, more knowledgeable about the American situation than I.

If you are saying that Church communities with a cultural perspective don't have the right to exist because they exclude converts who may not find the culture relevant etc. - then you are wrong - and we agree to disagree.

Again, if I don't want to join with Greek-speakers or others because I don't understand the language - there are other valid choices to be made - including choices from among a broad range of English-speaking Churches.

And what if I, like others here, find an English-speaking Church community to be "foreign" to me?

What if I find English liturgies to fail in helping me to express my own inner experience of the Christian faith as an Eastern Orthodox Catholic?

And, frankly, English liturgies for me is a great turnoff. I understand them. But I can't pray and worship in them.

So if you are about trying to create a univeral Church where everyone will feel at home in North America because English is used - I would think again.

Well intentioned though you are, you would be imposing a cultural framework of your own, the mainstream one, on many, many people who would reject it as a suitable vehicle for the expression of their faith in Christ.

You may want to raise this issue with our Patriarch and some others . . .

You might also want to revisit the book, "How to win friends and influence people..."

I'm not saying you are copping out or anything like that.

We "cultural" Christians don't say things like that . . .

Theologically, though, you have me beat.

Sociologically, your view conveys something of a naive view in this respect - your admitted "harshness" betrays something of an unwillingness to accept a view other than your own as normative on this issue.

We are both agreed that we are to be used by Christ to draw others to Himself.

As for which community He calls them to - it is not up to you or me to decide that.

It is up to Him.

Alex

LR: very well-said. It is Duch, not ethnicity, of course.