www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization Lack of reverence in church

It is my understanding that the way Eastern and Western Christians act in church differs somewhat. I have read Orthodox books which state that visiters are sometimes surprised to see the lack of soldier-like rigidness which is more common in Latin Catholic churches. However, my quesion is: what forms does this less "military like" approach take?

The reason I ask is this: I love the Byzantine church I go to, but what I perceive as a lack of reverence on the part of some parishioners is distracting for me. Examples of this are: talking and laughing during the anaphora(sp?), loose chatter on the line up to Communion, loose talk after Communion, discussing the rest of the day's plans during the final blessing etc.

Is this common in Byzantine churches? I have only been to one Byzantine church. I don't think this is what the author of my book meant when discussing behaviour in church.

Columcille

Well, no, that kind of behavior is just plain impious. This is not what is meant by the non-rigid Byzantine way.

I would say that it's not particularly common, although there are certainly insensitive, boorish oafs in every Church, ours included.

Though generally, since most Byzantine Catholic churches in the USA have pews, there is little difference between ours and the typical RC church -- line up, stand up, sit down, line up again.

I think the reference is to "visiting" icon shrines, lighting candles in front of them... but since we don't have much of that either, you aren't likely to see it in an American BC parish church. I can think of one in all of Pennsylvania where people actually do this. Though not even during the Liturgy -- mostly before and after. Since our American church design does not allow for shrines and candlestands (everything has to be Anglican-orderly and not "hunky"-looking), there's not too much to be doing except hunkering down in the pew anyhow.

RichC makes excellent points; these types of meanderings most often take place in Orthodox parishes where people generally 'visit' the icons (including ones donated by the family) whenever they enter -- even if things are going on.

As for the 'idle chatter'; well, sometimes it's a bad thing and sometimes a good thing. For example, when I am going up to communion, singing my little heart out, I pass by the cantor row. And, as sometimes happens, a good friend will be at the end, and I may just tap him on the arm as I pass, or alternately, he may see me, smile and give a polite little bow to which I respond. Why? Because it's what people who really care about each other are inclined to do. No recipe exchanges or gossip. Just heartfelt greetings and sheer joy at seeing parish friends. I guess it's a fine line!!!

I think the idle chatter thing has, however, a long history. Why else is the deacon constantly coming out of the sanctuary yelping: Wisdom! Shut Up! ??? (Nag, nag, nag..........No wonder we got rid of 'em for a few centuries.)

Blessings!

I do seem to remember reading St. John Chrysostom lamenting the fact that men and women made dates with one another and other mundane conversations during the Liturgy. It indeed has a long, long history.

Yes, I find the same thing in my parish. Talking during the epistle, gospel, holily, and after Communion. In other words, when peopel are not singing they feel its social time. But of course I couldn't say anything.

The most reverent parish I've been in was a Maronite parish where I attended for about a year. No talking, no nonsense, no nothing but silence. BC and RC parishes have been a mixed bag - mostly reverent but a few of each have been real "lulus".

Hmmm. So, 'reverence' means silence?

I'm not so sure for "Easterns". A while back I was at the Greek parish (Orthodox) after a long absence. In the interim, our cousin Eleni (=Helen for the Westerns) went home to God. Her husband spied me, and came over. We held hands for a short time, silently. Then we talked a few minutes.

Disturbing to the liturgy? Perhaps, but I don't think so. "Christian"? You bet your tush.

We have got to get beyond the Western/Warner Brothers/20th Century Fox understanding of what is spiritual and what is 'sacriligious'. If we succumb to "their" understanding, we are doomed. We KNOW what we should do; we DO it. If "they" don't understand, then ..........'em. (insert appropriate verb, in base form, without tense or pronoun endings.)

Blessings!

Is their not time after the Liturgy to socialize? The Liturgy is supposed to vertical, is it not? Is one hour a week to much to devote soley to God without having to have our own private conversations during it?

Now I'm not saying that a little, "Hi, how are you, how is the family" is wrong, but should that not be the extent of it until after Liturgy when the conversation can be picked back up?

Columcille

In American churches there is less informality than in the Orthodox world. In churches in the Orthodox world, it's very informal -- and crowded! -- at services. People are always entering and leaving, people are always venerating icons, lighting candles and the like. There is usually some quiet conversation taking place as well -- which is not a great thing, but it is done. I remember one vespers service in Bucharest where the priest came through the church to do the censing (the church was packed, and the crowd had to move to let him through) and as he was doing that he was greeting people, sharing a smile with them and a few pleasant words. That's really the "informality" aspect. In order for it to be real, however, there have to be no pews (pews don't allow informality) and the church has to be full (when the church is not full, people tend to be quieter and more reserved).

Brendan

To Columcille:

I've understood that there are both vertical and horizontal aspects to the liturgy. To me, the situation that Brendan describes (crowded church, people enjoying each other, being a community) sounds great. Don't get me wrong, I think there are times when it would be distracting. I guess my ideal would include moments of each. I think this is appropriate given what's going on in the liturgy, though. I've heard there are some latin American Roman parishes where "passing the peace" takes 10 or 15 minutes so you can talk to everybody!

David

Doesn't sound very "peaceful" to me.

(Sorry for the use of a horrid pun.)

Blessings!

Is it an East/West issue to understand that one is in the presence of God Himself? I thought not. Maybe it is. In which case, who has the real presence of God in Church and who has a "Warner Brothers/20th Century Fox" pseudopresence? I don't want to attend the wrong Church. All I know is I've been in both RC and BC Churches where except for the priest, you'd have been hard pressed to know there was a Liturgy or Mass.

PS: Sorry for posting again before Easter! (cf. Faith & Worship forum).

Dear Brother, I don't think it's a question of 'either/or', but rather a question of predominant theology.

We Easterns are indeed aware of the presence of God during the liturgy. And we are indeed truly venerating. BUT, if the Gospel is to be believed, then salvation is "present" because the community is "in the grace". For Easterns, the "in the grace" is not just a fall-down-and-worship thing, but rather a real sense of 'ekklesia', i.e., the 'community'. Just like the Jews ("Qahal Adonai"), salvation comes because we are "the group" that is saved through our belief.

For me, if the community is really community (i.e., love one's neighbor -- ALL of them!!), then salvation comes. But we have to let the Lord know that we are indeed community, and not just some legal fiction, organized to 'assure' our salvation. If we are doing the 'legal' thing, then I think that the Lord will clearly understand our subterfuge. And we'll be in deep doo-doo.

Let's do the 'love' thing. At least the Lord will understand.

Blessings!!

But still, who's "right"? Both? Then it doesn't matter to what Church one belongs.

I want to know who is truly Christian and who is "Warner Brothers/20th Century Fox". Which of my relatives are true Catholics and which are the "actors"?

That scene Brendan describes reminds me of the little basement in Tulsa. Fr. Gary Sherman turned the basement of a RC church into a beautiful little (Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic) chapel. There are no pews, but there are chairs around the walls. It doesn't take much to make the room feel full, since the chapel is so small.

I suppose we talked a bit more during liturgy than other folks, even those in Byzantine parishes, do. Yes, at times Fr. Gary would even say something, although not frequently, to a parishoner at a time during the liturgy (usually in his sermon or as he passed by).

I don't think that was irreverant. It was from a genuine love of the community and of each individual. It was a love that was so great it had to be expressed. What better place or time to express it than in the liturgy?

Our liturgies, however, were just as solemn as the next guy's. Since I have yet to see a Byzantine Catholic liturgy more "Eastern" than what we had there, I can say it was quite solemn.

Yes, people were less rigid. It is just a function of closeness as a community and physical distance.

For those of you who think just being quiet, folding your hands, and doing a b c is the best way to be reverent in church, I suggest you take a little trip to Oklahoma, or any other Eastern church without pews. You'll see and feel the difference.

I'm not saying being quiet, folding hands, and doing a b c is not appropriate at many times, but I am saying it's not appropriate all the time.

-cizinec