www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization Lack of reverence in church

What does having pews or not have to do with reverence? Taling in church, especially during the Liturgy, is a distraction. Deliberate distractions during prayer is a sin. No way around it and your excuses.

"Deliberate distractions during prayer is a sin. No way around it and your excuses."

Wow. This sounds more like John Calvin and his Puritan buddies. Or perhaps even the Quakers. I'm glad I'm part of the Euro-Byzantine tradition that lets us be happy, worshipping folks.

Blessings!

You know, when the topic originally came up, I wasn't thinking of a few words being spoken quietly. I was thinking more along the lines of the time I heard a cell phone ring during Liturgy - the same person, four phone calls. Or the time the priest announced Holy Day Mass schedule and someone (out loud) complained about the time Mass would start. Or the time a priest said he had something to say before the end and someone said (loudly enough that he could hear), "I'm not sitting through this!" and got up and left. Waddayathink? Irreverent or community fellowship?

And no one has answered my question (re RC & BC):



And once again sorry for posting again before Sunday.

Dear Entomos,

Let me try. ISTM that those who love their neighbors, forgive sins, try to understand where the other guy is coming from, and don't sweat the small stuff are the Christians.

The ones with the Church perfectly arranged with the correct furnishings and icons and equipment, who sing in all the proper tones all the time and follow the rubrics in their entirety and exactitude, are the actors playing their roles in the script.

God bless the poor in spirit, especially those so poor that they can't even pay attention.


Have a Blessed Day

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

[ 03-27-2002: Message edited by: Two Lungs ]

Gee, it almost sounds like you believe it doesn't matter whether someone is RC or BC, only whether they really believe and practice their faith, or are only going through the motions.

What a revolutionary idea!

Wow. Love of one's neighbor, and actions that affirm that attitude. Such a concept.

Blessings!

John, the sometimes chatterer with the brethren.

Dr. John, you still haven't addressed my question about your previous post:

It seemed to me when I first read this you were implying the Roman Church was "Warner Brothers/20th Century Fox". True or false? I really want to know which side of my family is truly Catholic and which is the Hollywood side!


Care to be a bit more specific as to who "they" are and what should be done with them (i.e., fill in the "base verb")?

[ 03-31-2002: Message edited by: Entomos ]

It seems like most of these instances are of a particularly occurance and situation, not much of an issue for general discussion.

Axios

As I stated above:

"We have got to get beyond the Western/Warner Brothers/20th Century Fox understanding of what is spiritual and what is 'sacriligious'. If we succumb to "their" understanding, we are doomed. We KNOW what we should do; we DO it. If "they" don't understand, then ..........'em. (insert appropriate verb, in base form, without tense or pronoun endings.)"

My point is this: there are images of what is "spiritual". For many in the West, the image of "spiritual" includes behaviors such as "silence", "kneeling", background organ music, stained glass, incense, bowing to the altar, genuflecting to the tabernacle, both-knees for the exposed Blessed Sacrament, head coverings for women, etc. These are all wonderful things; but they represent only one perspective.. As the Roman liturgy has changed to a more "communal" celebration, there is another group for whom the "ekklesia" has disassociated itself from the above list and who consider "spiritual" to be more a strong sense of community (a la the Jews) in which the spirit of God is represented in the bonds of love and service of the members.

In the East, we've had for many centuries a simultaneous lifestyle: we are really reverent in Church - venerating icons, lighting candles, bowing, making prostrations (as appropriate), signing our selves with the Cross scores of times, and singing in 38 part harmony -- AND, at the same time, having an incredible sense of 'belonging' to the community (which is sometimes confused with ethnic exclusionism).

So, I guess it depends on where one chooses to place one's self in the panopoly of communities that consitute the Church. For the first group of folks, where everything is "set", then that is where they should pray and "be"; for the second group (the "communitarians"), then that is where they should be and pray. The problem arises when the "media" determines what "reverence" should be. (Once again, it's the "Bells of St. Mary's" and "Going My Way" image of the Roman/Western church, i.e., pray, pay and obey, and be silent in the Church.)

The DOES NOT represent the tradition of the Eastern Churches. Yes, there is the reverence, but there is also the sense of "belonging". And it is truly a mix-and-match lifestyle.

So, for one's own RC family, see what is the pattern of one's parish and adhere to it or go elsewhere. But, for our Western brethren, please don't "come East" because we appear to be more traditional or reverent. This would be a serious mistake because the spirituality is radically different and our sense of community is also radically different.

We are not a "subset" of the Roman Catholic community; we are a Church unto ourselves, with our own way of doing things. Yes, we are in communion with the Holy Father, but we are so, precisely because we are "Church", and not a group of "special needs" folks who need special accommodations. Our way of reverence is our own; an amalgam of piety and community that is oftentimes opaque to others. So, we talk with each other, even in church, and even during liturgy. But we are still respectful to the Lord, but we are also simultaneously respectful to each other.

And we like it this way.

Blessings!

Christ is Risen!!!

[ 04-01-2002: Message edited by: Dr John ]

Christos Vorskese!
Voistinnu Vorskese!


The "simultaneous" approach to reverence and community is what has attracted me, a Latin, to "look east". One of the things that kind of turns me off about the "communitarian" approach in some of our Roman Rite churches is the superficial "touchy feely" feeling one gets. One thing that struck me when I started to attend the Divine Liturgy is the sincerity people have when they shake your hand and say, "How are you?" and really mean, "How are you?", expecting to hear the "oh, my dog died, my mother's sick, and I lost my job" kind of story if that's the case. And yet even a conservative Latin raised in the "Bells of St. Mary" tradition like myself can see the piety and reverence, albeit of a different kind.

One of the things I will never forget happened on Sunday at my first Pasch in an Eastern rite. On the way back to my pew from venerating the icon of the Resurrection during Matins, an old man at the back stuck his hand out, shook my hand, and said with such exuberence, "Christos Vorskese!" to me that I almost cried right there. A far cry from the complaining I heard during the Easter Vigil at a nearby Latin church the night before about the length of time we had to sit in a dark church while the Lessons were sung in Latin.

He is risen!
Indeed, he is risen!

Mikey.

Christ is risen!

Happy Easter everyone! As I have been reading these posts, I was thinking about Easter Matins this past Saturday evening in my (Ukrainian Catholic) parish. I was a bit late because I had to drive to Kansas City and pick up a couple of friends who wanted to attend Liturgy with me. When we got there the procession around the outside of the church was just starting. The cross, icons, incense, priest, servers and people all strung out singing loud and strong as we walked...some of the babas and men talking as we processed. Then went into the church for the rest of the service....all I could think was how much a family my little parish is. We all know about each other's problems and each other's joys. Yes, this is God's house, but it is our house too as his children and every time we gather for Liturgy it is a family reunion! I think a realization of our sense of family can help add to our love of God and intensify our worship of Him. I am a firm believer in the power of the Liturgies that we have had handed down to us...but the informality has a place too. To paraphrase Our Lord...the Liturgy was made for man and not man for the Liturgy. Treat it with respect and love, but also do the same with your brothers and sisters...even if that means quietly saying hello and asking how someone is doing. If there are abuses, and as in any family there will be, let the priest or the deacon (isn't that one of his functions?) handle it as they see fit. But in all things put on love.
Don

Great posts, Mikey and Don! Both show clearly that our "parishes" are indeed "parishes" in the canonical sense. BUT, there is also oftentimes a real sense of family/belonging that is something incredibly wonderful to experience. One does not "go to church" in order to fulfill an obligation (nor "avoid sin"), but rather because one would not want to miss out on a family gathering.

Christ is Risen!

Fact is, Dr. John, I've got BOTH RC and BC in my family - so you telling me not to come East is a bit too late (besided, I thought all Catholic Churches were open to all Catholics - stupid me! I won't forget my membership card or baptismal certificate next Sunday, I promise.)

I still think you were implying one tradition was bogus and one was true.

Gotta go - someone named for an Eastern bishop wants to play with his blocks.

No, indeed. I'm NOT saying that one is better than the other. What I am saying is: EACH church has its own soul and way of acting.

Romans oftentime like the "silence and veneration" mode of being in church. Byantines don't usually have this perspective.

It seems to me that Christ came to save the souls of individual sinners -- BUT and it is a HUGE BUT -- He formed a Church, i.e., a group of the baptized to serve as helpers for the members on their path to eternity.

The "Western" group seems to focus on the silence, veneration, "respect" in church manifestations.

The "Eastern" group seems to focus more on the sense of "being part of the Saved Group" (just like the Jews: 'Qahal Adonai', 'collective of the Lord'). "IT'S US!!!! YAY!!!!!" And so, there is no remorse about talking with each other, or hugging or kissing, or even: checkin' out the 'potentials' on the other side of the church.

So, I'm not saying one or the other Eastern/Western is "more Catholic"; that's just not a real question.

The real question is: is one part of one's own community AND doing what one's community does without question or hesitation?

As the hippies said: "Grow where you are planted."

Christ is Risen!!!

Well, I'm no hippie. I am a gardener, am I know for a fact many things grow better once they've been transplanted. But you don't want to hear that, I'm sure.

I understand one thing much better now, though -- why so many of my relatives left Eastern Europe and as soon as they hit the shores of the US of A a number of them (both RC and BC) lit out for the Methodists and Christian Missionary Alliance; they wanted nothing to do with the "Old Country" - its language, religion, music, anything.

In a very strange way you've helped me make a very difficult decision. I think I'd better look for another garden in which to plant my children. Maybe one of the EO Churches, maybe Prot ... who knows? See ya.