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Dear Diak,

What you say sheds light on the issue of why traditionalist RC's seem to be on the straight and NARROW with respect to the Eastern Catholic Churches.

Perhaps it is partially due to a seige mentality.

If there was more acceptance of the traditional Latin Rite by the bishops in the first instance (and I won't hide my own view that Rome should just bring it back period), perhaps the trads could afford to look beyond what I'll call their own traditional parochialism to appreciate the rich liturgical beauty in other Particular Churches.

Alex

I think the problems that Traditionalists Latins have are with their bishops, not with us. Since I had knowledge of the appropriate documents (Ecclesia Dei, and etc.), I collected signatures for a Traditional Latin Mass and submitted them to the local Roman Rite Bishop last year. I even explained to him that as a Byzantine, Ecclesia Dei did not apply to me and that I wasn't asking for the Latin Mass for myself, but for others that I know. He had no problem with that, but he did turn the petition down. He said he had no priests who could or would say the Latin Mass. I suspect he was telling the truth. Out of all the priests in this Roman Rite diocese, only one that I am aware of even knows Latin. They just don't study it anymore in the seminaries. Most of the Roman priests I know here are too overworked to take on anything else. So the "Trads" have many problems and all of those problems are not political.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by byzanTN:

>>>I think the problems that Traditionalists Latins have are with their bishops, not with us. Since I had knowledge of the appropriate documents (Ecclesia Dei, and etc.), I collected signatures for a Traditional Latin Mass and submitted them to the local Roman Rite Bishop last year. I even explained to him that as a Byzantine, Ecclesia Dei did not apply to me and that I wasn't asking for the Latin Mass for myself, but for others that I know. He had no problem with that, but he did turn the petition down. He said he had no priests who could or would say the Latin Mass. I suspect he was telling the truth. Out of all the priests in this Roman Rite diocese, only one that I am aware of even knows Latin. They just don't study it anymore in the seminaries. Most of the Roman priests I know here are too overworked to take on anything else. So the "Trads" have many problems and all of those problems are not political.<<<

Whether a bishop grants or denies the request for an indult to celebrate the Ordo Pius V in his diocese is a matter of his own pastoral discretion. A few who deny the request do so out of hostility for the old form. A few who allow it, do so because they wish to ghettoize their traditionalist troublemakers into a few parishes, where they can be indulged without bothering the rest of the diocese (and thereby giving the bishop a free hand to do what he wants). Conversely, a few bishops have denied the indult because they wish these very same traditionalists to remain in their parishes, where they can add "leaven" to the loaf. Such has been the case in the Diocese of Arlington, where the eminently orthodox Bishop Keating, and his successor, Bishop Paul Loverde, have managed to create a fairly uniform, middle-of-the-road liturgical atmosphere that maintains a semblance of unity within the Diocese. There are excusions at either end of the spectrum (Our Lady Queen of Peace on the left hand, St. Catherine of Siena on the right). But all use the Ordo Paulus VI, and all do it more or less by the book.

"Such has been the case in the Diocese of Arlington, where the eminently orthodox Bishop Keating, and his successor, Bishop Paul Loverde, have managed to create a fairly uniform, middle-of-the-road liturgical atmosphere that maintains a semblance of unity within the Diocese. There are excusions at either end of the spectrum (Our Lady Queen of Peace on the left hand, St. Catherine of Siena on the right). But all use the Ordo Paulus VI, and all do it more or less by the book."

Other exceptions are the parishes that are under "ordered" priests, like St. John Neumann.

In Arlington, I don't think the policy has been wholly succesful (although I'm not sure an alternative policy would have been any better): the SSPX chapel on route 7 is thriving with several masses on any given Sunday and an overflow church downstairs; the Eastern Catholic parishes all seem to have a good smattering of ex-Latin folks, some of whom are liturgical "refugees" of one sort or another (and aren't really being "leaven" in the diocesan parishes), and of course there are those that eventually end up in the Orthodox parishes in the area. I think when all of this is added in, a good deal of the leaven is, um, falling off the baker's table, if you know what I mean.

Oh, another interesting note on Arlington. There was a (to us, humorous) article by George Waigel in last week's Arlington Catholic Herald to the effect that celibacy is the true tradition and that the Eastern Churches that have a married priesthood have not embraced the fully developed tradition in this regard. Ah, sigh, plus ca change.

Brendan

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brendan:
>>>In Arlington, I don't think the policy has been wholly succesful (although I'm not sure an alternative policy would have been any better): the SSPX chapel on route 7 is thriving with several masses on any given Sunday and an overflow church downstairs<<<

Which sounds impressive until you see the diminutive size of the chapel. Assuming several Masses on Sunday and an overflow church downstairs, I think you are speaking of about several hundred people at most.

>>>The Eastern Catholic parishes all seem to have a good smattering of ex-Latin folks, some of whom are liturgical "refugees" of one sort or another<<<

I don't know what the situation is at Holy Transfiguration (and I really can't see many Tridentines staying very long after their first exposure to Fr. Joseph), but at Epiphany most of the Roman Catholics we have are either married-in, or people who are of Greek Catholic ancestry rediscovering their patrimony. Even so, I know that Transfiguration and Epiphany have between them about 1200 members (and that's being generous); if we assume that 25% of those are Roman Catholics (and again, I think that is generous), then we are talking about 300 people who opted out by going Byzantine, and another couple of hundred who went SSPX--out of a total Roman Catholic population of more than 20,000 within the Diocese of Arlington. That seems pretty good to me.

>>>There are those that eventually end up in the Orthodox parishes in the area.<<<

Those people, I think, can hardly be called "Tridentine Catholics" as the word is usually understood.

>>>I think when all of this is added in, a good deal of the leaven is, um, falling off the baker's table, if you know what I mean.<<<

It doesn't take much yeast to make the matzoh rise.

>>>Oh, another interesting note on Arlington. There was a (to us, humorous) article by George Waigel in last week's Arlington Catholic Herald to the effect that celibacy is the true tradition and that the Eastern Churches that have a married priesthood have not embraced the fully developed tradition in this regard. Ah, sigh, plus ca change.<<<

Weigel has some interesting blind spots, as does Richard John Neuhaus (in whose case, some might say the married convert priest doth protest too much).

"I think you are speaking of about several hundred people at most"

That sounds right to me, but there are many families there as well, and so there is the multiplier effect.

"then we are talking about 300 people who opted out by going Byzantine, and another couple of hundred who went SSPX--out of a total Roman Catholic population of more than 20,000 within the Diocese of Arlington. That seems pretty good to me."

Yes, demographically that may be accurate, but I think that the loss of these folks -- perhaps some of the more committed folks about issues like liturgy, for example -- can leave that side of the debate in the other Arlington parishes significantly weakened. In some respects, these are folks who are more empassioned about these issues than the vast masses of folks who one might see at Sunday Mass, and therefore their presence (or absence) can be disproportionate to their raw number.

">>>There are those that eventually end up in the Orthodox parishes in the area.<<<

Those people, I think, can hardly be called "Tridentine Catholics" as the word is usually understood."

Perhaps, but my point is that these people might never have become Orthodox at all had there been an indult Mass. Wouldn't have mattered to me, but I know of several to whom it may have mattered at some point in the past.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brendan:

>>>Perhaps, but my point is that these people might never have become Orthodox at all had there been an indult Mass. Wouldn't have mattered to me, but I know of several to whom it may have mattered at some point in the past.[/QB][/QUOTE<<<

I'm wondering if, at some point in the future, the Orthodox Church itself might not regret the fact that the Diocese of Arlington didn't indulge these people with a Tridentine Mass or two? It would be interesting to track these people longitudinally, to see where they eventually end up. I'm willing to wager right now that a larger percentage end up in ROCOR, HOCNA, or one of the Old Calendarist jurisdictions. Something to do with the absolutist mindset, I think. As somebody remarked concerning a certain OCA hierarch, "When he converted, the world gained an Orthodox but it didn't lose an Orangeman". When these people converted, the world may have gained a few Orthodox, but it remains to be seen whether the world lost an equal number of Tridentines.

"I'm wondering if, at some point in the future, the Orthodox Church itself might not regret the fact that the Diocese of Arlington didn't indulge these people with a Tridentine Mass or two?"

Perhaps. I guess I was speaking of a broader group than the Tridentine-backers -- rather of what I would collectively refer to as the "liturgical refugees", not all of whom are hungering for a Tridentine Mass, but all of whom are disgruntled with the current state of the Latin liturgy.

"It would be interesting to track these people longitudinally, to see where they eventually end up. I'm willing to wager right now that a larger percentage end up in ROCOR, HOCNA, or one of the Old Calendarist jurisdictions. Something to do with the absolutist mindset, I think."

I think that may be true. I think that many of them may go there from the get-go (although the pickings are slim for them in the vicinity of Washington ... the ROCOR parish here is really more Russian/ROCOR rather than anti-ecumenical/ROCOR, and while I understand that there is a small HOCNA community near Catlett, out by Manassass, I guess that's off the radar screen for many folks, which is understandable as well). I haven't met too many *Tridentine* types (ie, ex-Tridentines) in the OCA Diocese of Washington, but I have met quite a few ex-RCs (ie, ex-N.O. RCs).

"As somebody remarked concerning a certain OCA hierarch, "When he converted, the world gained an Orthodox but it didn't lose an Orangeman"."

The Bishop of the West is such a lightning rod for critique isn't he? At least it keeps things interesting.

"When these people converted, the world may have gained a few Orthodox, but it remains to be seen whether the world lost an equal number of Tridentines."

Yes, perhaps that is true. It is important for all of us to realize that we each carry our bags with us, as much as we may protest to the contrary, for some time after making a change of religious affiliation. Without doubt there are many Catholics who carry this or that with them into the Orthodox Church (and not only in the Old Calendar jurisdictions, but also in the "SCOBA" jurisdictions), and this is not always helpful. Whether one can, over time, shed some of those bags is an open question for each individual, I think.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brendan:
>>>I think that may be true. I think that many of them may go there from the get-go (although the pickings are slim for them in the vicinity of Washington ... the ROCOR parish here is really more Russian/ROCOR rather than anti-ecumenical/ROCOR<<<

They're a lot more "uniate friendly" than, say my neighborhood OCA parish and its former RC pastor--at least in private.

>>>While I understand that there is a small HOCNA community near Catlett, out by Manassass, I guess that's off the radar screen for many folks, which is understandable as well).<<<

They certainly wouldn't be attracted to the Johnstown parish out that way--though I think they would find its old=fashioned Greek Catholic liturgy more "latinized" than that of my own parish.

>>>I haven't met too many *Tridentine* types (ie, ex-Tridentines) in the OCA Diocese of Washington, but I have met quite a few ex-RCs (ie, ex-N.O. RCs).<<<

Me, too. Two types, as always: those who are converting TO Orthodoxy, and those who are converting FROM Roman Catholicism. The latter have an annoying tendency of then condemning everything in the Church whence they came (undifferentiated darkness there) and (in the near term anyway) view their new Church as being the "saving remnant" in a sea of apostacy. The former, on the other hand, get sucked in not by doctrinal or liturgical differences, but by the holistic attraction of Orthodox spirituality.

>>>"As somebody remarked concerning a certain OCA hierarch, "When he converted, the world gained an Orthodox but it didn't lose an Orangeman"."

The Bishop of the West is such a lightning rod for critique isn't he? At least it keeps things interesting.<<<

It's the Irish byzantines of all flavors who make life worth living.

>>>"When these people converted, the world may have gained a few Orthodox, but it remains to be seen whether the world lost an equal number of Tridentines."

Yes, perhaps that is true. It is important for all of us to realize that we each carry our bags with us<<<

I'm all in favor of a two-bag limit, and it has to fit in the overhead bin or in under the seat in front of you.

>>>as much as we may protest to the contrary, for some time after making a change of religious affiliation.<<<

Does coming in from totally outside count? Is "unchurched" an affiliation?

>>>Without doubt there are many Catholics who carry this or that with them into the Orthodox Church<<<

Well, one can look at the effect that the Evangelical Orthodox Mission had on the Antiochene Archdiocese, so it isn't just Catholics.

>>>(and not only in the Old Calendar jurisdictions, but also in the "SCOBA" jurisdictions), and this is not always helpful. Whether one can, over time, shed some of those bags is an open question for each individual, I think<<<

Sometimes it can take decades. I think the Carpatho-Rusyn Greek Catholic Orthodox Archdiocese still hasn't shed a lot of its Greek Catholic attitudes or useages.

"They're a lot more "uniate friendly" than, say my neighborhood OCA parish and its former RC pastor--at least in private."

Well, he's also an ex-Lutheran. I used to be a big critic of the prominence of so-called "ethnicity" in some Orthodox parishes, but I've come to appreciate cradle Orthodox increasingly over the past two years. The ROCOR congregation in Washington is about as nice as you can get, and really not what one would expect, given from what one reads of some of the members of that jurisdiction on the internet and elsewhere. The other parish you're referring to certainly has its weaknesses, as well.

"The former, on the other hand, get sucked in not by doctrinal or liturgical differences, but by the holistic attraction of Orthodox spirituality."

Yes, but I would only add that there is some overlap here -- some folks assign importance to doctrine as well as spirituality.

"It's the Irish byzantines of all flavors who make life worth living."

Ah, yes, still trying to dominate in North America, and if we can't do it in the RCC anymore (with all of the demographics flowing over the Rio Grande), maybe we can elsewhere....?

"Does coming in from totally outside count? Is "unchurched" an affiliation?"

This is an interesting question. I would reply "affirmative", but the actual substantive content of those bags would be harder to discern (whereas one might be more capable of discerning what might be in the bags of a former Catholic or Protestant).

"Well, one can look at the effect that the Evangelical Orthodox Mission had on the Antiochene Archdiocese, so it isn't just Catholics."

Yes, agreed. Or the impact that the converts have had on ROCOR (making up most of the antiecumenical wing, as well as much of HOCNA).

Not to sidetrack the discussion (Lord knows we never ever do that here!), but a couple things...

1) I don't think I agree with what many "experts" have written in the Arlington Catholic Herald over the past several years regarding various Eastern traditions. I give some of them credit for trying, when they get the story at least mostly correct or try to. But I doubt Mr. Weigle is an expert in Eastern tradition and, with respect, he should, in all fariness, stick to what he knows or ask an Eastern priest or deacon to write a guest column if he wants to take on those sorts of issues.

2) For what its worth, St. Leo the Great RC parish in Fairfax had a blurb in its church bulletin this week that pointed out various points - e.g., that Eastern churches have OCS as a traditional language rather than Latin, that married priests are part of Eastern churches' tradition, and that these traditions are valid. (I'm kind of summarizing - as usual, they confused terms like "rite" and "church" a little, as do I sometimes, but they were being more accurate than I've seen in quite some time.) Really basic stuff, but I give them credit for fair presentation.

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Brendan:


>>>Well, he's also an ex-Lutheran.<<<

Well, some people just have to keep looking for something.

>>>I used to be a big critic of the prominence of so-called "ethnicity" in some Orthodox parishes, but I've come to appreciate cradle Orthodox increasingly over the past two years. The ROCOR congregation in Washington is about as nice as you can get, and really not what one would expect, given from what one reads of some of the members of that jurisdiction on the internet and elsewhere.<<<

I found it interesting that most of the people present for the vigil the last time I was there were young couples with small children. Hardly a grand duchess or countess to be seen. That indicates to me a parish that has a future, one that is growing and nurturing the next generation.

>>>The other parish you're referring to certainly has its weaknesses, as well.<<<

It's interesting that though under one of the "ethnic" dioceses, they don't have much of an ethnic identity, especially as compared to the parish from which they spun off. Most of its members are in fact former RC or Protestant converts, and it's noteworthy that we at Epiphany have been unable to get many of them to visit us or participate in any of our parish activities. Nor have they ever extended to us an invitation to any of theirs. This stands in marked contrast to some of the more "ethnic" parishes in the region.

>>>Yes, but I would only add that there is some overlap here -- some folks assign importance to doctrine as well as spirituality.<<<

The difference I see is that while cradle Orthodox uphold the Tradition of the Church, they tend not to view doctrine with the rigidity or legalism of many converts. I doubt you'll find many cradle Orthodox who own a copy of the Pedalion, and fewer still who have actually read it--but I've met more than my share of converts ready to quote from it, chapter and verse.

"It's the Irish byzantines of all flavors who make life worth living."

>>>Ah, yes, still trying to dominate in North America, and if we can't do it in the RCC anymore (with all of the demographics flowing over the Rio Grande), maybe we can elsewhere....?<<<

Believe it or not, one Irish Byzantine is busy converting the Irish up in Dublin, where he's running a nice parish originally composed of Ukies, Russians, Byelorussians, Romanians, Melkites and what-have-you, but who is now increasingly bringing in native-born Irish. In fact, he baptized fifty adult catechumens last Pascha. Really rather amazing, I'd say.

"Does coming in from totally outside count? Is "unchurched" an affiliation?"

>>>This is an interesting question. I would reply "affirmative", but the actual substantive content of those bags would be harder to discern (whereas one might be more capable of discerning what might be in the bags of a former Catholic or Protestant).<<<

Considering how many different traditions are in my family background, I'd have to say I was doomed to be an ecumenist by blood.

In response to my earlier post(s), I want to clarify what I meant, there may have been some of my BC-Orthodox brothers and sisters who may have "misundertood" what I was actually saying.

As far as designating an area for RC converts at BC parishes ( to meditate upon the Stations of the Cross, for example ), I did not mean this to be a surrendering of the traditions of the BC's. If that is how it appears to have come across, please accept my apology.

The suggestion was to make an outside convert "feel at home" with some of their traditions while learning/embracing the traditions of the BC rite he/she is involved with.

I must confess, I was very excited the first time I set foot in the BC church with my wife. It had been over 30 years since I had been in one ( to refresh your memories, my father is a Ukranian Catholic )... and what was the first thing I saw? A couple praying the rosary before the Divine Liturgy. I looked at my wife and gave her one of my "You gotta be kiddin' me !!!" looks. Yes, I was disappointed... the last thing I "wanted to see" what something RC-ish. So I do understand what is in your heart(s) concerning this.

The last thing I would suggest, or want, would be RC's to take over a parish. I would like to see more mutual love and acceptance of each other, however.

But would it hurt for BC's and RC's to pray each other's respective traditional prayers/meditations? Wouldn't that be an answer to our Lord's prayer that they would "all be one"?

Peace,
Walt Metrick

Once in a great while, perhaps, sure. But we Byzantines (parochially speaking) have yet to decide that our own prayer traditions are even worthwhile beyond the Divine Liturgy. When's the last time you had the option to attend the Paraklis in a parish, during the Dormition Fast or any other time? And of course, our casual discarding of the Hours, Vespers, festal Matins, etc. is well-mourned here. Until we're spending more time learning, appreciating and following our own prayer Tradition, I wouldn't recommend it.

to Lemko,

Yes, I agree.

Walt M.