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There is always going to be the distinction between one's personal devotion and the 'collective' perspective that is the embodiment of the 'ecclesiastical' communality of the Church.

There is a distinct problem when one allows one's own personality and perspective to be the yardstick of what is valid or legitimate and when one is confronted with the the community. Some of the traditionalist RC brethren 'know' what is legitimate "Catholic" perspective and practice; they see some of this in our Eastern Church and so they feel that they have found a safe refuge among us. The problems arise when they realize that we, although "traditional" to the utmost, also embody other values that are in opposition to their perspectives (infant confirmation, infant communion, married clergy, lay involvement in ecclesiastical matters, crowning in marriage and the priest's critical role in the sacrament, bread and wine as integral to communion, full lay participation in the liturgy through chants, songs, etc.) and so they are comfortable to a certain extent, but would love to have us discard our legitimate traditions so as to be in conformity with the totality of the tradtional Latin perspective.

This isn't going to happen.

So, they get discouraged when we don't acquiesce to the traditional RC mode and insist upon maintaining our legitimate Eastern traditions. I feel bad about them and their pilgrimage to find their place in the Church. But I realize that we, as Eastern Christians, cannot ever acquiesce, even in the utmost of Christian Charity, to their needs.

We MUST be aware of what we are, and we must be absolutely convinced that we are valuable to the Church as a viable pathway to salvation. And we cannot ever allow ourselves to be a pawn in the game of RC civil strife. If they have a problem, then they need to deal with it without drawing us into it.

For the RCs: No, we aren't "Catholics" as you sometimes describe us. We are a "Church" that is in mutual communion. As a wag put it: Are we in communion with Rome? "No, they are in communion with us."

Blessings!

Dear Walter,

Yes, that whole "Let's see which Church is better" thing is a bad scene!

RC's are very accepting of the fact of multiculturalism.

They are less so on the score of Particular Churches and Rites, however.

There is something about the Latin attitude that wants to see one single monolithic structure and rite in place, Tridentine or NO.

Sometimes I think the NO Latins don't like the Byzantine and other Eastern Catholic Churches because they offer, what I would call, "a proximate temptation" to other NO Latins to want to pine after the good old days of the Tridentine Liturgy.

Latins in general are good people. It's just that you never know what they'll be up to next!

(Relax, Steve, relax . . .)

Alex

Being in communion with Rome makes you *Catholic*. Eastern Catholics are just that: Catholic. The Eastern Catholic churches make up 21 (right?) of the 22 churches that comprise the Catholic Church in its totality.

Soli Deo Gloria,
ChristTeen287

My dear teenaged Friend,

"Catholic" is a term that really goes beyond the idea of union or communion with Rome.

The Orthodox also refer to themselves as "Catholic" and I understand they have a thing or two to say ABOUT Rome . . .

Alex

Slava Jesu Kristu,

I agree, Alex, we are in communion with the Roman Catholic Church but not really part of it. The Byzantine Catholic Churches have their own patrimony and praxis. I think that is something the Holy Father has tried to foster.

Dmitri

Dear Dmitri,

Yes, we are very Particular when it comes to the RC Church . . .

But we are in communion with the Roman Patriarch and my point is that one can be legitimately "Catholic" without being in union with Rome.

Right Orthoman?

Alex

Dmitri,

Right, you are not Roman Catholic, you are Eastern Catholic...but still Catholic. A Roman Catholic is no more Catholic than an Eastern one.

Soli Deo Gratia,
ChristTeen287

Perhaps we should refer to ourselves instead as Peculiar Churches...

SAdly it seems that, from what I have read on this topic, that there is a lot of uncharitable behavior on the part of some traditionaly minded Roman Catholics towards the Eastern traditions.

This is unfortunate and most definatly unecessary on the part of my Latin rite brethren and, as is the custom today, I humbly apologize for their behavior. I too, was a disgruntled RC who turned Orthdoxo because there were many wonderful things that I loved about the Eastern Church. Soon though I realized that I still believed in Catholicism and was just fooling myself with trying to be Orthodox.
When I decided to come back to Rome though I natuarly wanted to become Byzantine. But soon however, especially after being on this list, I realized that I was a Latin at heart and was simply trying to use the Eastern Catholic Church as a refuge from Roman modernism. I then realized that it was wrong for me as Catholic of another rite to impose my discipline and spirituality upon you good Byzantine people (As I had often argued and done in the past on this forum and elsewhere). Therefore, as I could see it, the only honorable thing for me to do was to stay where I was and fight for my own traditions along with a whole lot of other folks who are out on the front lines.
IMHO, it is wrong for Latin Catholics to impose their own ways upon those of another particular discipline just as it would be for another rite to impose itslef on them. I hope that the decision I have made will be, in some small way, an example for others in what was my situation to wake up and smell the cofee and, in turn, get back to their own traditions where they are needed. I still would however like to participate on this forum because I have a genuine love for the Eastern faith and would like to continue respectfully contributing to its discussion here.

Respectfully yours.

Robert Kearney

Robert, I think your perspective is a valuable one and it is for precisely this ability to communicate and 'share' that this forum exists. Please keep on posting. If it was just us Byzantines, it would get really boring.

Blessings!

Dear Dr. John,

Please speak for yourself!

Alex

Sorry, I unfortunately and unwittingly spoke on behalf of the madcap Ukrainian fringe element. They are, to be sure, quite capable of speaking on their own behalf, even if it is in Ukrainian or broken English.

Blessings!

Bravo Robert. Well said.

Spiritus Dominus replevit orbem terrarum, alleuia. Et hoc quod continet omnia, scientiam habet vocis, alleluia. ("The Spirit of the Lord has filled the world, alleluia, and is all-embracing, and knows man's utterance, alleluia" from the Short Responsory after the Little Chapter for the office of Terce for Pentecost in the Roman Breviary)

Dear Robert K.,

Yes, well said, well said . . .

Now, do you use the Tridentine Daily Office and if so, is there an English version one could purchase?

Alex