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Chad writes that ".Second after fighting in the first Gulf war and then in Somalia I think that I have earned the right to say what ever I want and will not be judged by any poster on the web. If you want to analize the psycology of what it takes to survive on the battlefield then ask your questions.Third I dont think that anyone can presume that their Policy is better than that of our Government. Have you ever been to the middle east?Have you ever seen the tortured Christains?Have you watched your friends bleed to death?"
Chad already had and still has the right to say whatever he wants. So does everyone else. Having raised a particular issue, it seems strange that Chad would object to people voicing their opinions - and even more strange that he gives as a postulate, if not even an axiom, that one one may presume that their policy is better than that of "our" government. Whyever not?
Have I been to the Middle East? Yes, several times. Have I seen the tortured Christians? Yes, more times than I really want to count. Do I believe that the US government is doing anything to redress the legitimate grievances of the Christians of the Middle East? NO, I DO NOT!!! On the contrary, I believe that American policy in the Middle East is encouraging the continuing blood drain of Christians away from that part of the world where the Church was born. Incognitus

No, Chad, I have never experienced combat, and I don't envy you the horrific experiences you recount. I pray you may receive healing for those wounds.
I do have a problem with your insinuation that one who has not been through these things has no business stating an opinion or offering a moral critique. I have heard, too often, the same argument from homosexuals about sexual morality and from "womyn" about abortion and from married couples about contraception. The truth is that a eyeball-close view of a thing rarely offers a realistic perspective. Stepping back brings it into focus. The one in the midst of the situation is the LAST person who should be relied on to articulate moral principles. That is why religious people of every tradition have always saught out those who have renounced the world as spiritual fathers. [except the Protestants, which may explain some of their problems].
You did suggest, in an [assumed] joking manner that God loves the marines because they kill people, thus giving Him souls. I merely took your suggestion to its logical conclusion to show its offensiveness. If this is the attitude toward the taking of human life that combat experience engenders then perhaps the pacifists are right and the military life is inherently corrupting...
Anyway, God's peace to you and yours.

Dear Daniel,
Perhaps I have been rash and for that I apologize. I understand it was a bad quote but it was also a quote that shows the logic of the common Drill Instructor. In combat the only logic is kill or be killed and thinking will cause you to hesetate and that might get your fellow soldiers killed.We have always fought wars and the reasons were not always the best but on the ground that is the last thing that you think about. I will tell you that all through history soldiers have been responseable for some major atrocities on both sides.
Poor Sinner Chad

I figure Catholics are citizens - and citizen soldiers - just like everybody else. Hopefully, we keep our sense of morality with us in what we do in our public and private lives.

My family has always been quite religious (Catholic and Orthodox) and has also had a long history of serving this country honorably in the armed forces. We've even produced a chaplain or two and several folks, maybe even one you've heard of, who served with distinction.

I feel that your priest is entitled to his personal opinion and you should respectfully listen to what he says. But his personal opinion may be right or it may be wrong. The decision to serve, and if you decide to serve - to serve well, rests with you.

Btw, some of what Chad says caught my eye because it strikes a familiar note. My dad was a WW2 combat vet (PH, Bronze star). He was a well-adjusted guy - multi-talented, intelligent, friendly, devout, great husband and father.

One day, I was watching that Civil War documentary that Ken Burns made and it was the part about Andersonville. They had those poor skeletal looking prisoners in those rather odd, 19th century looking portrait styles. I thought it was kind of "gross" and turned away from the TV in time to see my dad wander into the room, stop short, and I noticed he had a really odd look on his face. I asked him what was wrong. He said he hadn't seen anything like that in years and asked me what on earth I was watching. And I THOUGHT he was talking about pictures - but then I realized he was talking about real people.

So I'm gonna do my "mommy-in-the-middle" thing here:

Incognitus, please cut Chad slack. The horrors that young men experience - not just observe, but LIVE - in war are not quite the same as what the rest of see as, albeit unwilling, spectators. They can and will haunt them to old age. And Chad, please respect Incognitus' opinion - he's got a right to it, after all - and he brings his own perspective to the discussion.

While I don't consider military service to be intrinsically evil, I think the question any Christian considering joining the armed forces should be asking themselves is, "Will my Faith be in anyway compromised ?". Only you can answer that question.

I agree. I believe that every nation is a divine creation, not mere product of history and geography, which has a mission to fulfill in the world. There's nothing as Christian as serving one's country and it's our duty to defend it. Otherwise it would be treason but:

1. A nouble man cannot be accused of treason when he rejects to obbey an order that is against the faith. This could be the example of those Mexican soldiers who refused to follow Communist officials during the Christer War (1920's).

2. It's also not treason when the orders are manifestly unjust and mean an attack against people who belong to the faith. This could be the case of the Batallion of Saint Patrick, which refused to follow Protestant officials in 1847 (the Mexican War) after they saw a Christian Nation being attacked. or when the authority is so bad that has lost its right to rule.

3. It would be a manifest treason when the faith and the country are both betrayed. Again the 1847 gives us two examples of treason: that of Mariano Vallejo and Juan Bautista Vigil who were believing Christians but refused to fight, accepted charges in an invader administration, and supported the killing of their own people.

Now that there's no longer a war that requires a forcible defense of any country, the decission is that of the person. In the case of Iraq, it must be said that an American soldier who obbeys orders in the war cannot be accused of sinning or anything else, and at the same time phylosophers would state that one who prefers retirement is not commiting treason either, because the situation is so complex that both sides are right in their views of thee war.

Mexican

On the subject of the San Patricio Brigade, I must respectfully disagree with you. As an American, I can consider the Brigade members, nothing other than traitors, who's executions were completely justifiable under the circumstances that they were conducted. The men (only about half of whom were Catholics of Irish descent, some were even Protestants !) were members of the US military, who defected to the Mexican army, and then bore arms against the United States. Would any country on earth, including Mexico, have acted differently under the same circumstances ?

In addition, most Brigade members joined the Mexican army because of promises of financhial gain, and not because Mexico was a Catholic country at war with a country which had a Protestant majority.By contrast, over 4000 Irish born Catholics served loyally in the US military in the same war.

Shlomo Lkhoolkhoon,
In the last few days I have been going over both theological and the political parts of U.S. policy. The first part are some words from Dietrich Bonhoeffer, a Lutheran Theologian who faught against Naziism, that every so often I re-read to set my moral compass. They are: "The church must fight evil in three stages: The first was to question state injustice and call the state to responsibility; the second was to help the victims of injustice, whether they were church members or not. Ultimately, however, the
church might find itself called "not only to help the victims who have fallen under the wheel, but to fall into the spokes of the wheel itself" in order to halt the machinery of injustice."

The second are the words of Anthony Zinni, who served as head of Central Command, responsible for U.S. forces in the Middle East had this to say in a speech earlier this month:

This administration came in with an idea of transforming the military into something�God knows what�lighter, smaller, quicker, whatever. The bill payer was going to be ground units, heavy units. And now we have a shortage of exactly what we needed out there. �

[W]hen we put [American soldiers] into harm's way, it had better count for something. It can't be because some policy wonk back here has a brain fart of an idea of a strategy that isn't thought out.

They should never be put on a battlefield without a strategic plan, not only for the fighting�our generals will take care of that�but for the aftermath and winning that war. Where are we, the American people, if we accept this, if we accept this level of sacrifice without that level of planning? Almost everyone in this room, of my contemporaries�our feelings and our sensitivities were forged on the battlefields of Vietnam; where we heard the garbage and the lies, and we saw the sacrifice. We swore never again would we do that. We swore never again would we allow it to happen. And I ask you, is it happening again?

As patriots we must alsways question our government to make sure that our and the worlds best interest are being served. That is part of our Christian duty.

Poosh BaShlomo Lkhoolkhoon,
Yuhannon

C4C, its ok.

My MOS is 03, either 0331, or God willing 0321 force recon.

dan.

Dear Friends,

It is always an honourable thing to serve one's country in its armed forces.

Recently in Kyiv, an Orthodox monk reposed in the Lord in the odour of sanctity - and he was formerly a much-decorated soldier in the Red Army fighting Hitler!

There are Orthodox military sites that work with soldiers.

Recently, a group of Ukrainian soldiers were sent to Iraq and each was given a "soldier's cross" and an icon of St George. They were all blessed with Holy Water etc.

Recently also, a Russian soldier who was martyred in Chechnya for refusing to take off his soldier's cross (I think Diak once posted some links that sell these)was locally canonized a saint.

A former Russian Admiral of the Black Sea Fleet, St Theodore, relative of St Theodore of Sanaxar, was glorified as a military saint in Russia too.

St Nicholas of Japan, although Russian, blessed Japanese soldiers who went off to fight Russians in the Russo-Japanese War. Later, Tsar Saint Nicholas Romanov decorated the Orthodox missionary with a medal for his demonstration of diplomatic tact in a difficult situation!

So military service is both an honour and something that is sanctioned religiously.

As to moral issues and politics, that is another matter.

But ultimately it is one's own conscience, informed as it should be, that counts.

Perhaps your priest should be transferred to another parish?

Alex

I dont know about that.
I know we have 3 that i know of that were in the military. 2 in the army and one in the USAF, and im in the Marine Corps.

daniel

Dear STBenedictRule,

Is there a patron saint for the US Marines?

Alex

Well, there is also an anti-militaristic tradition in Christianity and Eastern Christianity especially in the Early Church for example the penances imposed on those who killed in war. There is another side to this question!!

My father BTW, was a Marine Drill Instructor and fought at Guadalcanal. But he did see through all the "gung-ho" nonsense that so often floods conversations with "old buddies" and he was able to keep his sense of humor and balance about that and accept and listen to other perspectives. One of the many things I admired him for.

Dear Brian,

Yes, but the early Christians also believed the world was going to end soon and totally devoted themselves in preparation for the Lord's coming.

St Basil, as you've mentioned, imposed a canonical excommunication of three years on EVERY Christian living in a country that went to war.

For if they were TRULY Christians and exuded the Spirit of Peace, their positive influence would not have resulted in war - and therefore they were guilty, in some sense, of starting the war.

Alex

There is a considerable body of literature on the San Patricios, who fought for Mexico against the USA. Many people regard them as heroes, and I share that view.
If we must discuss our ancestors, I shall mention that my own father, Memory Eternal, also served in the US Army in World War II, and I am not in the least ashamed of that. To the contrary, his name is carved on a monument outside his parish church, remembering all the parishioners who served in World War II, and I often show people that monument with pride. Incognitus