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All,

I had the same problems as Cizinek as regards to the Ukranian Catholic Church. My first experience with Eastern Catholicism was with the UCC, where a friend of mine took me to a Ukranian Catholic Church near Toledo, Ohio.

The Sunday Divine Liturgy was sung in Ukranian. Being that he was a Russian major and that Ukranian and Russian are similar languages, he started singing with gusto. I was lost until the middle of the Divine Liturgy. What made it worse was that when the priest welcomed the visitors, everyone turned around and looked at us. After the Divine Liturgy, the two or three people who bothered to talk to us asked us if we were Ukranian and asked us what our last names were [mine is German and my friend's is Irish] and then they dismissed us with mumbling about as 'not being Ukranian.'

I must tell you, with one exception of me telephoning the priest who was the administrator of a small Ruthenian Catholic mission in Jacksonville, Florida [now closed and sold to a Syriac Catholic parish] who was extremely rude when I asked when the Divine Liturgy was {I lived in Jacksonville during the summer when not attending college near Tampa}, the people and the priests of the Ruthenian Catholic parishes have been extremely welcoming towards me when I have attended Divine Liturgies and other parish activities.

Hello folks!

I just had to put in my 2 cents worth! God willing, on December 9th I will be making a Profession of Faith at St. Joseph's Ukrainian Catholic Church in St. Jospeph, MO. My experience there has been the complete opposite to what you others have described. From my first visit I have been welcomed with open arms and made to feel right at home! I am not the only non-Ukrianian there...even the priest is of Scottish descent! The Liturgy is mostly in Ukrainian, but I find I picked up Hospody Pomyluy right away and it seems that after a year a few other phrases are finally sticking in my mind. I can't speak for other UCC parishes, but at St. Joe visitors are made to feel welcome! I am looking forward to becoming a part of that parish family. And Alex, you are right...we newbies can put away the piergi! I was visiting my Babcia Stephania last night and she gave me a big bowl full to take home with me...both potato and sauerkraut (my favorite)!

Don

I just had to put in my 2 cents worth! God willing, on December 9th I will be making a Profession of Faith at St. Joseph's Ukrainian Catholic Church in St. Joseph, MO.

Hooray! You are in my thoughts and prayers.

http://oldworldrus.com

I'm so glad for you, Don! Welcome home. God grant you many happy years! Pray for me as I do for you. May the pierogis multiply!

Congratulations Don! I'll certainly be praying for you. Please pray for me as I consider more earnestly and urgently just such a step as you have taken. God bless!

I tend to agree with Dustin on this one. If the immigrants are still coming, it is very helpful to have a community for them in which they feel welcome and can worship in the traditional tongue. The other side of that coin, however, is that where the immigration is not really coming in any significant number any more, the language should be shifted to English, where this is the native language of most of the parishioners who attend.

The Ukranians seem to have an active immigration at this time, and therefore at least some of their parishes should retain Slavonic. The same can be said of the Russians. I know a number of Russian Orthodox parishes that serve two liturgies every Sunday -- one in English and one in Slavonic with a Russian sermon -- to accomodate the entire community. I have been to other communities where the liturgy is served in both English and Slavonic (with an English sermon, usually, and perhaps some remarks in Russian after the liturgy), which makes for a more cohesive community but a much longer liturgy.

What I really don't understand, however, is the massive failure of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese to implement English language in the liturgies, even though the vast, vast majority of its faithful are native-born Americans who don't speak much Greek (much less middle Greek). In my personal experience, it tends to make their communities rather closed to outsiders, for practical reasons. The closest Orthodox church to my workplace is a GOA parish -- I tend not to go there for feastday liturgies, however, because when I do the liturgy is mostly in Greek. If I have the extra few minutes, I'll drive to the OCA parish, which is a little further away, but which serves the liturgy in English. My own OCA parish has a number of Greek Americans who attend precisely because they are married to non-Greeks and wanted an English-speaking parish, so I think that what Dustin noted in that regard is also true -- at least in my own experience.

Brendan

It is difficult to implement any reform in any church community when the people resist those reforms. And the hierarchs of the GOA know their people well enough to also realize that forcing change is futile.

The English-Greek issue is one that can only be implemented parish by parish with due regard given to pastoral care. Many GOA parishes still have Greek Schools and even liturgical Greek is not as "foreign" to our children as one outside the community might erroneously pre-suppose.

In our parish, Greek is still a living language and many of our children, teenagers, and young adults have, at least, a working knowledge of the language; those young adults who are graduates of our Greek School are often fluent Greek speakers.


In fact, we have in the past tried to introduce more English into our liturgies, and many young parishioners objected to those changes because they realized how umcomfortable their elderly grandparents, parents, and other family members were with those changes. They understood that we also have an obligation to provide for the religious needs of our elderly who made great personal and collective sacrifices to build and sustain our community. They love the liturgy in Greek and it would be uncharitable, even cruel, to rob them of what they resonate spiritually so well to. For us the change of liturgical language is, therefore, a moral issue.

I, personally, do not resonate well to the liturgy in English and I believe there are many other Greek Orthodox of my generation who will guard our traditions and pass
them on to future generations since we believe them to be spiritually beneficial. After all, every parish has an evangelical mission not just to those outside the community, but to those within. Sometimes the spiritual and liturgical language of that community is a very important evangelical tool and that language which fulfills the evangelical needs of the community should prevail above all others. If the language is a "foreign" language, so be it. But each parish within GOA is unique and forcing all to march to the same drum beat will not work for Greek Americans.

On the other hand, Greek parishes with more diverse parish demographics will have to make other and more complex adjustments in the future.

The primary considerations for change must be predicated on pastoral care.

Bill

[ 11-20-2001: Message edited by: Psalm 46 ]

Interesting perspective.

I'm of half/half background: half Greek, half German/Irish/French RC background.

Most of the Greek parishes in New England (my home stomping grounds) are struggling with the Greek/English conundrum. I see similar things here in the Mid-Atlantic (Maryland/DC/Virginia) region.

I must confess that I took my Greek Orthodox mother to the local Ruthenian parish for liturgy on a Sunday morning. (This is a woman who considered all Roman Catholic litugy sorta "Protestant", except for Benediction which she considered real 'Church'). She wasn't quite sure about this Byzantine thing.

At the Ruthenian liturgy (English), at the age of 75, she said that for the first time, she actually understood what was going on. And she thought the priest was wonderful since in the sermon he admitted that he got 'lost' on the highways -- a significant characteristic of my Mom's. During that sermon, I got a SEVERE elbow push in my side!! That's SOOOO Greek!)

Jurisdiction?

Bite me.

Blessings! (Hey, folks: IT'S PEOPLE!!!!!)

Regarding this English/Ethnic Tongue issue. I think it also depends on what jurisdiction one is speaking of. I'm in the OCA (Orthodox Church In America) and at the prsent time 50% of our Bishops are converts, while over 1/3 of our priests, and 2/3 of our seminarians are converts. The percentage of convert priests and seminarians in the Antiochian Archdiocese is even higher. Out of the so called 'cradle Orthodox' seminarians the vast majority are second or third generation American born. Also, I understand that the Byzantine Catholic (like the Orthodox) has a problem with a shortage of priests. This results in having bi-ritual priests in many of your parishes. Point I'm getting at is that's it's not so easy to find a priest that is bi lingual to the extent he can handle an ethnic parish these days.

Point well made. So, it looks like the ______ Church (fill in the jurisdiction) is going to become increasingly "American" whether we like it or not. (Except perhaps for ROCOR and some Ukrainian jurisdictions?)

Please remember our ROCOR brethren in your prayers, evidently they're going through some rough times right now. Their retired metropolitan, Vladyka Vitaly, was sort of 'kidnapped' during the last synod and spirited off to Canada.

Blessings!

Dear Friends,

Yes, the ethnic thing can be a pain . . .

It is fascinating to read about the "American" melting pot experience, as it differs so from the Canadian multicultural one.

My parish is "in between." Everyone understands the Ukrainian liturgy, but they read the Lord's Prayer and the Creed in English to basically show they have "arrived" and aren't DP's.

I would prefer an all-English Liturgy instead. But the problem is that even those with family connections that go back 100 years from Western Canada and whose Ukrainian is really lousy still want to hear it during the Liturgy.

One such Ukrainian prairie "nationalist" told me he refuses to attend a struggling new parish near his home because "it's all in English." His Ukrainian, however, is non-existent.

The use of English in our Liturgy is being promoted from within a "let's join the mainstream" mind-set.

The problem is that, for them, the mainstream not only includes English and English Canadian traditions, but also more Roman Catholic traditions. The "mainstream" for these is also the Latin Church.

Those who want to keep Ukrainian see in Latinization the same kind of English cultural assimilation that their ancestors saw when they were under the Poles.

Thus, to want to keep Ukrainian as the liturgical language (and the Old Calendar) is to be in favour of the Byzantinization of our Church.

"Keep Ukrainian on your lips and the Byzantine Rite will grow in your mind and heart."

How's that for a slogan?

No? Have a nice day . . .

Alex

It's hard to satisfy everyone in a parish. My home parish is in an economically depressed area. Because of a lack of industry, it can be surmised it will never have the problem of worrying about newly arrived immigrants. There are very few people from the 'old country' still living. Most of the parishioners are first, second, or third generation AMERICAN BORN. Recently, due to the death of the beloved priest who served for years, a vacancy occurred. Because of the priest shortage a newly arrived young priest from Russia (Moscow) was assigned. Immediately problems occurred within the parish because his English wasn't the best and people had problem understanding him. His wife and kids spoke no English so private tutors were hired to teach them English. Because of the language barrier, they kept to themselves. This was perceived by some as 'stand offish'. Anyhow, the people drove the Bishop crazy until they had him replaced. The new priest is a convert and speaks no Russian and English with a southern accent. About 95% of the people really love him and his family (he has three wonderful young sons). But of course you have that other 5% who are complaining that he can't speak Russian. So go figure.
Those Ukrainian and ROCOR parishes you speak of will eventually die out if they don't change their attitude. However, you may be surprised to learn that even ROCOR has many English speaking parishes and convert priests. They are not as etnic as some people think.

Orthoman

Dear Orthoman,

Yes, the parishes will die out, unless they can somehow continue to maintain the language.

Up here, and for a number of reasons, the language is doing extremely well.

And this is not only because of new immigrants. If anything, the new immigrants are quick to learn English and some that I know are quickly forgetting Ukrainian!

Ukrainian schools and other familial and community "pressures" to maintain Ukrainian are in place.

In two parishes that I know of that have many Roman Catholic traditionalists who have come over, these have actually (no kidding) learned the Liturgy in Ukrainian and have more than a rudimentary understanding of the language. Some of these English Catholics know the language better than Ukes that I know. And they participate in parish life and help the poor etc.

The parishes with an emphasis on English tend to be the most "Latinized" or else they are so "Orthodox" that they appear rather extreme to both Eastern Catholics and other Orthodox who see them as such.

Again, there is no evidence that the language and the cultural component in our Eastern Eparchy will collapse for any time to come.

Besides, I've been told that our American friends have trouble with languages as a whole, including English . . . (kidding, kidding)

Alex

I think we have touched onthis topic again, but I think some have the misimpression that its "evangelization vs. ethnicity." The GOA is an excellent example of the error in this. Many communities in North America have large elements of unevangelized Greeks. Furhter evidence is the existance, in the same town of a Greek parochail school and a competing "Hellenic Academy", often openly anti-clerical.

K.

Dear Kurt,

Excellent point!

Ethnic nationalisms can often be anti-clerical or else they can settle into churches and parishes and transform them into institutions that primarliy serve political/ethnic community goals.

A fellow once introduced me as being Orthodox and I immediately wanted to strike up a conversation about Orthodoxy.

He then told me to hold my horses and said that he doesn't believe in God but just goes to Church because he is a good Ukrainian.

In my parish the other day, a simpleton (did I say that? Sorry, I shouldn't have called him a simpleton) came to question our priest about something.

I thought he wanted a further explanation about the sermon or some such matter.

As it turned out, he wanted to chastise the priest for mispronouncing a Ukrainian word.

Being a priest's grandson, I always come to the defense of clergy . . .

However, ethnicity CAN be a beautiful thing when intertwined with our spirituality.

I often feel sorry for those for whom their experience of Byzantine Christianity is bereft of a cultural component like that.

Alex