www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization Altar Girls

Dear Deacon Lance,

Perhaps I'm missing it but I don't see those comments in this thread. In the name of charity please point them out.

A former seminary professor used to say "if you can imagine it, somebody is probably doing it." If I go to some parish of some jurisdiction and see something very strange and make a photo of it that does not mean that whatever was being done was right nor does it mean that the jurisdiction in question endorses it. It just means something strange was going on there.

Tony

Before anyone says , name your jursidiction and I will name the foolery. Sad but true.

I am convinced that the best thing anyone concerned can do is to email the Acting Rector of the St. Mary Magdalen Church in NYC, Fr. Yakov Ryklin. fryryk@earthlink.net I think that would be the best way to handle it. I cannot speak for him or his community.

Priest Thomas

Tony,

It was not explicitly stated, but with the arguing over where the girls were serving, what they were wearing, etc. I felt the implied arguement was we let girls do some things but we don't let them serve in the altar, but as the pictures show that is happening too.

I certainly agree that just because some parish is doing something does not mean it is sanctioned. It does show however we all have the same problems and either side trying to make the boast "well at least we don't do (fill in the blank)" is an invitation to look foolish.

Fr. Deacon Lance

Deacon Lance,

Well-stated.

Many years,

Neil

http://www.oca.org/pages/news/news.asp?ID=678

To the Reverend Clergy, Monastics, and Faithful of the Orthodox Church in America,

Recently, questions have arisen on numerous internet forums concerning the position of the Orthodox Church in America with regard to those who serve in the Holy Altar in parishes. The questions and ensuing controversy arose as a result of photographs appearing on two parish web sites depicting robed girls performing duties traditionally delegated to males. This has led to a great deal of confusion and discussion as to the policy of the Orthodox Church in America in this regard.

In their concern for maintaining the integrity of the Church and its traditions, the Holy Synod of Bishops of the Orthodox Church in America, meeting at Saint Tikhon of Zadonsk Monastery in South Canaan, Pennsylvania, October 18-21, 2004, reaffirms the ancient practice of the Orthodox Church that only males are to be admitted to service within the holy altar. Any practice to the contrary in this regard is strictly forbidden.

While reaffirming the Orthodox Church's practice concerning sacred ministers and others called to serve within and care for the holy altar, the Holy Synod of Bishops also wishes to encourage all Orthodox Christians to offer their services to Christ's Holy Church, in keeping with their baptismal vocation.

Thank you for your generous and devoted service to the Church, I remain

In Christ,


Protopresbyter Robert S. Kondratick, Chancellor
Orthodox Church in America

Well, the OCA has checked in and put the matter to rest.

Many years to His Beatitude HERMAN, Metropolitan of All America and Canada, and the Holy Synod of Bishops of the Orthodox Church in America!

Priest Thomas Soroka

Dear Father Thomas,

Your blessing!

It is nice to know that this forum has the kind of influence that can affirm OCA ecclesiastical policies!

I don't suppose that would have anything to do with a few seminarians on the forum that attend St. Vladimir's, would it?

Welcome back, by the way!

Kissing your right hand,
Alice

P.S. And I join in with you in wishing Metropolitan Herman: 'Eis pola eti despota!'

Dear Deacon Lance,

Once again you tend to go to great lengths to equate an isolated incident and say they are the same thing as a not so isolated incident or occurrences that are common. Why do you do that? If you want to get even ok you win, we loose now you don't have exaggerate anymore.

Ok I accept your invitation and will fill in the blank. I ask you this question, is it truthful?

"well at least we don't do (fill in the blank)" is an invitation to look foolish.

"well at least we don't do in ROCOR" is an invitation to look foolish. Is that believable?

Bear in mind that people do have free will and that free will seems to be a bit more on the free side when it comes to some of the post Vatican II liturgical practices. As least it seems that way to me.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

Matthew,

Deacon Lance and I have had our differences here from time to time, but I think you have taken a comment, which I read as no more than an reiteration that we all need to recollect, in humbleness, that perfection is lacking in all our Churches, and twisted it into something it is not.

You need to get past the anger that keeps displaying itself in your posts.

Many years,

Neil

It is interesting that I was just discussing, how I thought it was a very good leadership move on the part of Metropolitan Herman to issue a letter about the robed girls, with a friend who grew up in Greece.

When explaining that someone here said that girls may be needed when no boys are around, I got an interesting response.

In Greece, she said (and come to think of it, I do remember this), there are generally no altar boys, and there is usually no one around to hold the altar cloth. Thus, each person who communes holds the altar cloth for himself and out for the next person to hold.

Actually, I now recall this being the practice at the ethnically Greek parish here in the U.S. that I grew up in. I now realize why I seem to be one of the only persons in my present, less ethnic parish who does this, despite, the presence of altar boys! I guess the learned habits of childhood don't die easily!

I will try to remember to let the boys do their job next time!!

In Christ,
Alice

Dear Matthew,

With all love and respect, perhaps you are over reacting just a wee bit?

If we wish to believe 'the other' is our enemy, we will take offense at anything...even good natured ribbing or even something complimentary. I have seen this happen many times.

This happens so often and everywhere, that it would be nice if we could realize that we are all brothers and sisters in Christ, and that we shouldn't take offense by each other so easily...(unless ofcourse there is real personal vitriol).

I think the most liberating thing for the spirit is not only to acknowledge our faults, whether it is personal, familial, ethnic, religious, national, or anything else, but also sometimes to agree and laugh about them, rather than go on the offense. Ofcourse, in some cases, a comment may need our justification or defense, but in that case, let's try to do it charitably. I don't think that there is one person that can honestly say that they have not misinterpreted the intent of another on occasion. So, ofcourse sometimes things said may need clarification.

Life is too short and too precarious for anger and taking offense. We are all on this journey together...let's enjoy it in the light of Christ who suffered the most agonizing death for all of us. Like my priest said his Spiritual Father once told him when he said he was angry at someone...."put yourself at the foot of the cross on Golgotha with our Lord dying up there for you, and tell HIM: I can't forgive, or I am angry at my brother!"

With love in Christ,
Alice

Dear Neil,

Actually, I thought about it and I don't think I was angry just truthful at least I know I was calm when I wrote the response, perhaps I'm confused and not aware of my passions as much as I should be and they are much more obvious to others particularly to those that might be familiar with them or able to readily identify with them. Thanks for your concern, I try to take your advice bearing in mind that I believe that the Orthodox Church lacks nothing and that there is a difference between that and human passions...

I really don't think I've twisted anything, have you? It seem that some of you good people just think differently or have a much different perspective something. I might add that many Orthodox think that "Orthodox in communion with Rome" is something of a twist.

In Christ,

Matthew Panchisin

Matthew,

Actually, I don't think that either the Orthodox or Catholic Churches lack anything, ... except the grace and wisdom to reunite with one another in the common love of He Who is Our Lord.

Many years,

Neil

The service book (sluzhebnik) of the Russian Church stipulates that the deacon(s) hold the communion cloth. But since every parish does not have deacons, it usually falls to men or boys within the parish.

Priest Thomas