www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Document on Women Deaconesses

Alex,

I'm still waiting for your commentary on Stuart's words in regards to Remie's post.

Did you forget my questions?

Dear Cantor Joe,

I agree with Stuart's view that it is our responsibility to defend our own traditions with respect to deaconnesses, no matter what the West does - it is the West's business, not ours.

But that doesn't mean that the laity in our Churches will agree to that. Greece trains and ordains deaconnesses, but is finding great difficulty in placing them.

I've come across many in my Church who is or would be afraid of a women deaconness for precisely the reason given here - that it might be seen as a prelude to women priests.

What is the Eastern Church "ideal" is often a kind of construct from a theological as opposed to a pastoral point of view.

Theologians, armchair or otherwise, can afford to envision all sorts of changes while bringing back things from our past.

Those involved in pastoral work directly with real people in real parishes have to be a bit more erudite.

I therefore concur with the spirit of Remie's post, even though I cannot disagree with the erudite Stuart.

But the day you and Stuart are actually responsible for real-life parishes will be the day I'll stop relying on people like Remie to bring a pastoral balance to the equation.

Alex

Alex,

Thank you.

Alex wrote: "But that doesn't mean that the laity in our Churches will agree to that. Greece trains and ordains deaconnesses, but is finding great difficulty in placing them."

Alex brings up an interesting problem if Eastern Churches begin to ordain deaconesses: placement. But placement is related to ministry and function. What sort of ministry would a deaconess be involved in? What examples do we have from recent Greek ordinations?

It will be interesting to read what is included in this document.

Dear Cantor Joe,

Just take it easy - I'm sorry, O.K.?

I've given you my take on it.

I'm not the only one who gets personal here.

Alex

Do we have a copy of the document available to comment on? As far as the article states, the final draft has not even been written.

Dear Cantor Joe,

I don't know how the Church works, but in politics, whenever a controversial report is being prepared, "trial balloons" are sent out into the press to see what the public's reaction will be just prior to publication.

I doubt if a draft of that report is available - it would be great if it were.

But I really do think that, as with the document on the status of the Old Covenant et al., this too is being "trial ballooned."

Does not, however, the Particular Latin Church allow for actual female deacons as opposed to deaconesses to serve in certain, limited contexts?

What would the liturgical role be, if any, for such a Latin deaconess? A Byzantine deaconess?

If deaconesses were responsible for helping adult women catechumens prepare for the rite of baptism, then, in today's times, they will be as busy as that washing-machine repairman on TV.

It is clear that the role of deaconess needs to be expanded in this day and age.

If deaconesses are to have a meaningful role that goes beyond what is surmised as a political statement about women's equality in the Church, then how would they be different, in the Latin Church say, from a deacon?

If they will be able to distribute Communion etc., what is the qualitative difference between deaconess and deacon?

Our Byzantine Church tends to be rather negative about women in the sanctuary altogether.

What can a deaconess do what parish women and nuns don't already do?

There are doubtless a number of ancient traditions and roles that have fallen into disuse over the centuries.

There should be a good, contemporary reason for resuscitating them.

Alex

Well I started to investigate about this with priests and people I know (the word deaconesses is not used). From what they told me, it's been an experimental thing in the Church of Greece and they are like lay ministers who receive preparation and a blessing (of course a ritual is used, but it is not clearly an ordaination), It has not been aplied in other countries and it is not officially approved (the dioceses of Constantinople outside the East do not have deaconesses). If you have some corrections or clarifications please tell me.

Dear Remie,

Yes, and the Coptic Church has them I believe - they are like an order of nuns, for the most part.

Again, I'm not against deaconesses but it must be shown what their contemporary role in the church would be.

Also, the fact is that parishes in places who have them tend to be shy about taking them on.

I think the Presbytera has a much more comprehensive and readily accepted role in the Church than a deaconess today would ever have, historical precedent, documents blah-blah-blah notwithstanding.

You know, Remie, that my in-laws' parish would never accept a deaconess - I'll tell you that right now.

The walls were painted last week and new Greek Crosses were written.

So many there were that complained this last Sunday.

Some insisted that those Greek, equal-bar Crosses are "Russian."

I definitely think our parishes aren't ready for women deaconesses

Alex

Dear Friends:

I personally disdain putting a damp on a lively discussion such as this, but

". . . the presentation of and final vote on the text regarding certain questions about the diaconate" (presumably including the question on "women deaconesses")

[See full news story at: http://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=29898 and the follow-up story at: http://www.ewtn.com/vnews/getstory.asp?number=29931]

has yet to be tabled during the Theological Commission's plenary session which starts today, September 30, and ending on October 4.

An attempt to collar the Vatican's position on the matter is clearly premature as the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith, as the "supervising" dicastery, will have to mull over the same before even it gets the attention of the Holy father, Pope John Paull II.

So, save your ammunition for the 5th!

AmdG

Dear Amado,

I rather think the Vatican will "skirt" around this issue . . .

Alex

Dear Brethren,

Oops, I almost forgot I posted this I'm sorry a few people did not find this to be news-worthy. I thought it was significant that Rome was pondering this question of Deaconesses. I thought this for a number of reasons.

First of all, at bare minimum, I figured since we were a communion of Churches which comprise the one Catholic Church: what one Church does -in some way- effects the others. Not only this, I thought this took on an added interest being that Rome traditionally is known as being the Church with the Primacy. It must be at least remotely interesting to the other Churches what the ancient See of Rome is up to on this issue.

By the way, I got my hands on the book "Deaconesses" by Aime Georges Martimort. Does anybody know anything about the book. It purports, according to the blurbs on the back, to be rather an authority on the issue. Does any one have enough familiarity with the text to comment on its reliabillity one way or the other?

Thanks,

Der-Ghazarian

Female Deacons? Theological Commission Finds "Door Not Closed"

VATICAN, Oct 7, 02 (CWNews.com) -- The International Theological Commission has concluded a long study of the diaconate, and issued a "nearly unanimous" report that finds the debate on the possibility of ordaining women as deacons is "still open," and must be settled by the magisterium rather than by theologians.

The 30 members of the International Theological Commission met in Rome last week, under the direction of Cardinal Joseph Ratzinger, the prefect of the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith. Their discussion of the diaconate had been commissioned by that Congregation eight years ago, and will now form the basis for a new document on the diaconate, to be issued by the Congregation.

The exact nature of the diaconate, and the possibility of opening that ministry to women, have been the subjects of active discussion at the Vatican for several years. In 1998, as he introduced a new "directory for the ministry and life of permanent deacons," Cardinal Dario Castrillon Hoyos, the prefect of the Congregation for Clergy, said that the Vatican wished to avoid any "confusion on the idea of the diaconate," and told reporters that such confusion could arise from premature discussion of the ordination of female deacons. At the same time, Cardinal Jose Savaira Martins-- at the time, the secretary of the Congregation for Catholic Education, observed: "While 'deaconesses' indubitably did exist in the early days of the Church, they were not ordained in the same way that priests were; they simply received a blessing, which was not a sacrament." Three years later, in September 2001, Cardinal Ratzinger joined with Cardinal Jorge Arturo Medina Estevez, the prefect of the Congregation for Divine Worship, in publishing a "notification" to warn against "initiatives which are designed, in any manner, to prepare female candidates for ordination to the diaconate." The document explained that any such initiatives, undertaken while the question is still unsettled, would encourage false expectations that could eventually cause severe disappointment.

Msgr. Ronald Minnerath, a French member of the International Theological Commission, cautioned against any misinterpretation of the Commission's report. The group had not suggested that women might be ordained as deacons, he told the Roman news agency I Media; rather the report had "not closed the door" to that possibility.

The diaconate is one of the three forms of ordained ministry in the Catholic Church, along with the priesthood and episcopate. The service of deacons has traditionally focused on catechesis, participation in the liturgy, and service to the poor. A candidate for the priesthood passes through a period of service as a "transitional deacon," but the Second Vatican Council also revived the role of the "permanent deacon," who is not expected to be ordained as a priest. There are now 27,036 permanent deacons in the Roman Church, of whom nearly two-thirds serve in the United States.

Alex wrote:
Alex, I don't think that is the case. Others feel free to correct me if I'm mistaken.

My 2 cents worth: I think you raised many good questions here. I believe if one were honest the answers could be summarized as "Deaconesses" (which were not ordained) were *LAY* people used for specific functions BECAUSE THE NEED EXISTED. A good comparison to our own time would be the use of extraordinary eucharistic ministers in RC parishes because supposedly a need exists for them (I say 'supposedly' because our own communion service in our Orthodox church takes 20 minutes for people to commune and nobody seems hurt by this...). BUT if the RC's suddenly had lots and lots of priests and deacons and there was no need for extraordinary ministers of the eucharist then they would disappear.

The functions of the lay women called "deaconesses" in the past seems to be more than adequately filled today by extraordinary ministers of the eucharist, deacons, and in the case of the East, presbyteras. And nuns do the rest. So since there doesn't seem to be a need for them to exist one has to wonder what the agenda is for requesting it?

It's sort of like asking, "Can the RC's have extraordinary eucharistic ministers?" during a time when they simply weren't needed - the question would have to be - why?

I think that deaconesses could pick up the ministry that they once had, and which today is generally filled by laywomen or nuns. That is, they would be responsible for all issues directly affecting women and children; they would be ministers of the Eucharist for women who are ill, institutionalized, or sequestered; they would help oversee religious education; they would participate in evangelization and catechesis; and of course, they would assist at the baptism of adult female catechumens. It's interesting that the wives of our permanent deacons often find themselves thrust into those roles, as though their husbands' orders sloshed over onto them. And while the ministry of the deacon is shared with his wife, just the ministry of the priest is shared with the Pani, it is too much to expect them to fulfill the entire role of the deaconess by virtue of their marriage to a deacon.

This is an interesting topic. But, as a Latin, I find it somewhat a cause for nerves. The reason is that in my experience the sisters and nuns which have involvement in the parish in things such as catechesis and education are overwhelmingly heterodox. The atmosphere around them is one of a political agenda. I have further noticed that the women on television and in books who are calling for women in orders, most specifically the priesthood, almost without exception speak of men having to share the power. References are almost universally about power or are worded to reflect attitudes of deep envy. Considering this, and the times and place in which we live, I find it hard to imagine that the deaconess would mean anything other than militant political feminism being given a more powerful forum.

I understand that as an issue this affects the East differently than the West. I cannot comment on what the East does, but if this were opened up for my Church I would certainly mourn it. It could do nothing good for the Church and would inevitably lead to dissension and political battles. That, at least, is how I see it.

God bless,

Patrick