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Sam, if they are so "Byzantine" they should know that the Byzantine Church, whether Catholic or Eastern Orthodox, has no "Rastaphores!" We do have "Rassaphores," however. "Rastas" is a corruption of Rastaphorians, a heretical sect of Jamaicans within (Ortho-Rastas) or in schism from the Ethiopian Oriental Orthodox Church, but with the intention of worshipping Emperor Haile Selassie II as GOD!!

Orthodox East,

I apologize if I offended you, but please don't shoot the messenger. I am not a part of this group.

I posted their advertised information word for word. Because they were connected with a legitimate priest in a legitimate Eparchy I naturally thought they were legitimate monks.

Sam

Dear Friends,

This is certainly a legitimate Eparchy and Parish. But hasn't this parish been the scene of some unseemly behavior in the past, regarding a wrestling website? I wonder how legit these Byzantine Carmelites are. They may be very sincere, but healthy skepticism is in order.

Have a Blessed Day !!!

John
Pilgrim and Odd Duck

Dear Father Elias:

Funny you should say this: I just met my very first secular Carmelite yesterday at our Franciscan meeting. We had the profession of a new member of our order and the chorus that performed included a couple of folks who belong to the Carmelite secular order. For the record, I think they sing better than we Franciscans! :-)

Peace and all Good,
Annie

Hi Glenn:

Excellent question! I've kind of grown up as an odd hybrid of West and East, so being a Franciscan really fits for me. The order really draws elements of its spirituality from both, although I'd say the Latin elements dominate. The order, of course, has its roots in Italy. Our ritual is decidedly Latin. But our Rule is simple, as is our desire to live in imitation of Christ following the example of St. Francis. It's a pretty universal message.

On a personal level, my spirituality leans strongly East, but I'm a real hybrid, having been brought up with Roman Catholic and Orthodox parentage. I perform my Franciscan daily office by attending the Vespers at a monastery if I can. If not, I say morning and evening prayers from a 1940s Byzantine prayer book. But I also supplement when I can by doing the Office of Readings or Night Prayer from the Western monastic tradition.

I don't particularly find that it matters who is a Byzantine and who is not in our fraternity. Some of our members have never been to a Byzantine church and want to have a "field trip." They ask a lot of good questions, so if we ever did that, which I hope we will, we'll definitely need to ask a priest or deacon to stay after Liturgy for a few minutes and talk to us. We've got a real inquisitive group!

A general suggestion: See where you feel at home in an order or in a fraternity. It's like joining a family. See if you feel at home with the group, its communal prayer life, and its charitable work in the community. Professed members are generally expected to participate in the community's work unless it is impossible for them to do so.

My father was not a Franciscan himself, but had a strong devotion to St. Francis. In many ways, he imitated the saint in his own day to day life. This really is what drew me to the order. Everyone has their own path, I suppose!

Peace and all Good,
Annie

Dear Friends,

The term is "Ryassophores!"

Nothing to do with the Rastas . . .

A "Ryassophore" is the first grade of monasticism in the East, literally, "he who bears a Ryassa" or monastic robe.

The next is "Stavrophores" or those who bear a wooden Cross with the Great Schema the highest grade.

The icon of Mt Carmel on the above site originally came from the East, from the Greek hermits who formerly inhabited the caves of Mt. Carmel.

The Prophet Elias, it is said, built a chapel/cave to honour the "Mother of the Messiah to come."

The Greek hermits supplanted the former Hebrew prophet/hermits and then came the Latin hermits, with crusaders escaping the Saracens following the defeat at Akkar.

The Hermits of Mt. Carmel had a main chapel in the centre of their establishment with the Byzantine icon that was later brought to Naples, Italy and is, to this day, called "The Brown Mother of God of Mt. Carmel." Or else, "La Bruna" or "Our Lady of Naples."

In later times, the icon was "touched up" by Italian artists and the small scapular was added to the hand of Our Lady.

The Carmelites wore an Eastern mantle, with brown and white stripes, very much like an Eastern Archimandrite's mantle.

Their scapular was the polystavrion of the Great Schema and was made of leather - hide of a dead animal to indicate being dead to the world and its evil.

The Third Order Carmelite Scapular that the Carmelites in Naples distribute (and one of which I own) is also made of leather, bears the icon of Our Lady of Mt. Carmel on the front with the Three Stars of Our Lady on Mt Carmel (signifying Her being a Virgin before, during and after Christ's Birth) on the back.

The cords that join the two pieces are also brown and white - like the ancient Carmelite robes.

Simon Stock of Aylesford had his vision of the Mantle of our Lady precisely in his moment of crisis when he prayed to the Mother of God to protect his monks - as the local Latin Orders had declared the Carmelites an Eastern monastic rule and therefore without right to be in the Patriarchate of the West!

There is a French Carmelite monastery that follows the Byzantine Rite in every which way.

Alex

I know I shouldn't criticize.... But I am a little upset about this group and the name they have chosen for themselves. (they are not the only ones who have 'borrowed' titles).

But should I be offended when a new group "hijacks" the name of my Order for their own? If they want to be Carmelites, then they should join the Carmelite Order. If they do not want to join the Order, but instead want to found an Order of their own, let them choose a new name. The name "Carmelite" is already taken.

I suspect that such new groups assume the name of an ancient and recognized and established community in order to lend credibility and dignity to their own new group.

Judging from the website, I suspect they know as little about Carmelite spirituality, as they do about Byzantine Monasticism. If they are under Father Glenn's spiritual direction as they claim, then I hope he will guide them to another name for their group. I could be wrong of course, but from what I read on their new website, they are neither Carmelite nor Eastern.

But I hope I am wrong. Please forgive me for a negative note of disappointment...

Elias

They claim to be part of the Eparchy of Passaic. Can this be verified in some way?

Bless me a sinner, Father Elias!

I know nothing of this group.

But the issue you raise is certainly an interesting one.

The Carmelite Order is one that is descended from the Hermits that lived on Mt. Carmel.

The early Hermits there were most likely Greeks - the later RC Carmelites took over their traditions and their icon of Mt Carmel that is today in Naples.

The Carmelite inspiration is surely one that can be shared by others outside the Carmelite Order which, although it has Byzantines, is fundamentally a formation of the RC tradition.

Is it not a charism open to one and all?

Alex

Dear Alex,

It is God who blesses you!

You are right of course, it is a charism that can be shared. In fact, the Order extends well beyond the original monastic boundaries of monks and nuns, and incorporates the secular orders, third orders, apostolic congregations, and scapular confraternities of lay men and women throughout the world. These groups have "affiliation" in some sense with the Order, and usually look to the Order for direction and guidance about the charism.

Is that a different thing, however, from a new group assuming the name and title for themselves?

Perhaps I should not have been disappointed at the use of the name, and perhaps I did over-react a little...

But, before any groupd uses the name of Byzantine and Carmelite, I do hope that they are fully aware and formed in the tradition of their title.

Part of being Carmelite, includes more than just a 'spiritual inheritance' or any isolated charism. It is also the charism of obedience, to the Prior General, and to the authorities elected within the community.

Perhaps the group should contact the Order, and ask for permission to use the name, and assume the title, and also at the same time be willing to accept direction and formation in the Carmelite tradition? Should they not at least as a courtesy seek permission from the Order, as readily as they are anxious to wear the habit of Carmel and to be recognized as 'Carmelites' who live under the name? But then, perhaps Bishop Andrew has already given this permission in his eparchy.

Elias

+ Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us. Amen.

Bless me a sinner, Venerable Father Elias!

(Do you see what wonderful influence the Administrator has over me?)

On another thread, mention is made of the tradition to bury Catholics in the full Carmelite habit.

And these were Scapular-wearers, it would seem, only and not Third Order members.

Could you comment on this?

Kissing your right hand, I again implore your blessing,

Alex

Sam,

I think Two Lungs offered some solid advice. Be a little skeptical regarding this group.

I do know that they were introduced to the parish by the current pastor shortly after his own arrivalin 1999. They were then supposed to be from the Ukrainian Byzantine Catholic Church 'in Ohio'.
About a year later the parish received an open invitation to attend a Liturgy in which the pastor was to 'knight' them asthe order of St. John/ Knights of Malta. Many parishioners donated money for their custom made neck crosses. Apparently the bishop heard of the ceremony about to take place and everything was cancelled rather quickly.

The monks were gone for awhile, and when they did attend Liturgy in that parish they wore 'street clothes' instead of their black robes, and they also were not functioning as altar servers anymore.

It appears they are back, now as Carmelites in brown robes, and once again serving with the pastor. They have also in the past used the initials IHM behind their names.

They are the same three friends of the pastor. I don't think this sounds right, and one has to wonder if Bishop Pataki 'knows'. Southeastern PA is many miles from Passaic, and the bishop IS 75 years old.

Sorry to be so negative Sam, but in this day and age you have to be aware of what is going on in the Church today or you will be sadly deceived. I have family and friends there and we've had a few discusssions about it, but they are too old to make waves. This makes me very sad.

Bernadette

Sam,

Could you please verify your information? It is my understand that this group was rejected by Bishop Andrew and has no connection whatsoever with the Eparchy of Passaic. They appear to be people who mean well who are out to create their own version of monasticism rather than submit to an appropriate religious order (Latin) or monastery (Byzantine) for formation.

You might consider removing the link to their site to avoid the implication of an endorsement until you have verified their status with the Eparchy of Passaic.

Admin

Gee, whiz, I thought we were supposed to be going in the direction of restoring our traditions, including monastic life, not going the other way.

See, what I missed. I've been busy lately and off the Forum and see what I missed.

But, maybe I didn't miss anything important -- based on the Administrator's last comment.

Thank you, Lord, for the Administrator. A good lesson here -- to verify information.

I removed the link so as to not endorse this group. I received my information from what the group has advertised, assuming they wouldn't advertise unless it was true.
Live and learn!

Sam