www.byzcath.org Forums News & Events Church News Document on Women Deaconesses

Re the Question of "the Right Time" or not, is, I think, a question for the Latin Church and a matter for their discernment in their spiritual journey.

E.g. the question of a married presbyterate in the Byzantine Churches [don't know about other Orthodox Churches] is not conditional on whether it is a controversial matter in the Latin Church. It is simply our Tradition and the Charism which God has given us to preach the Gospel and glorify the Trinity.

Likewise, for us the Female Diaconate.

Our Sacred Tradition should not be used as a tool in the Latin Church's internal struggles.

For the Byzantine Churches, the office of the female diaconate in the Orthodox Tradition is not in question. It is in the canons, in the Tradition, in the liturgical norms. There are saints, etc. It has never been abolished, it needs no re-institution, but any hierarch or Church need only begin ordaining suitable candidates to that Order. As they may well at any point [as they did in the early part of this century {sorry, I mean the LAST century}].

For us Orthodox in Communion with Rome, our interest imo is how to support the Orthodox Churches in their re-activation [not just as an office that is extant here and there, but a more generally extant office]of this office, as they seem to be doing in some quarters.

From Aklie it sounds as if Women Deacons are still common in the Church of Ethiopia. Can you tell us more please? I should be very interested to know more about it, e.g.: how common is it, what do they do, what is their liturgical role, what is their pastoral role, who are the candidates, etc., etc.

cix

herb.

Alex,

You said;

But it has been argued here that the rite is an ordination. If it is not an ordination to Holy Orders, then what does it ordain one to?

Herbigny,

You said;

Correct it is not in question, it is also not in question that the practice has died out, it stoped being used.... Why? I think we must answer this before it is restored.

You say it was never abolished, which I guess is technically true, but the practice was abandoned, again, why?

You said, "[as they did in the early part of this century {sorry, I mean the LAST century}]" who are they?

I only know the Copts doing this, and I believe that the Copts only do this within a female monastery and the Greeks who have a school for them but it appears that the deaconess is only used in t Greece and it isn't too welcome in the parish settings, again from what I have heard.

David

Dear David,

Well, one may be consecrated to a number of roles that are non-sacerdotal in nature.

Formerly, one could be consecrated to the now defunct order of Virgins. Not too many of those around any more . . .

Monastic tonsure is sometimes called "Monastic Ordination" but that doesn't make one a cleric.

I was made an altar-server by a special rite and every time I went to serve, I went to the priest for his blessing, my robes were blessed etc. but that didn't make me a cleric.

There is a liturgical rite of consecration of Emperors and this, together with monastic ordination, were considered Mysteries or Sacraments by the Eastern Church which, at one time, totalled 12 and not 7!

There is a rite for the consecration of Reader, and while the Reader may get married and is below a Subdeacon, he is considered a part of the clerical rank, as is the "Diak" or Cantor in our Church.

In other words, the Administrator, Joe Thur and Sharon Mech are Cantors and therefore they are all part of clergy, even though they are not priests.

Alex

dear David:

From what I understand, the female diaconate "stopped" because when the Latin Church attacked Constantinople and took over the Greek Church, they "stopped" the office. And when they left it never got reactivated as commonly as before. I've not heard why. But then neither do I know why the Male diaconate is likewise [or almost likewise] a non-existant phenomenon in the ordinary life of the Greek Church in general, from what I have heard.

"They", as I recall, include St. Nektarios. The others I shall have to look up again. My memory seems to indicate certain hierarchs of the Greek and Russian Church - admitted some 3 or 4 only were ordained, but on the other hand...3 or 4 were ordained!

herb.

Alex,
I am not trying to be a pain but....

I am aware of the many consecrations, but the rite for deaconesses was called an ordiantion. You may not be aware but I am a stickler for words and their usage. Ordination and consecration are not the samething always. So when one choses to use the word ordination instead of consecration, it is usually for a reason.

Also, the Latin Church has revived the consectration to the order of Virgins. The group affilated to the Legion of Christ, Regnum Christi I believe.

True, I have heard that the monastic consecration is sometimes thought of as an 8th sacrament.

As for having your robes blessed, I do this when I serve at the altar and I did not undergo any special rite.

As for the robes being blessed and you not being a cleric, a deacon, who is a cleric, still must receive the priest's blessing before he vests. If no priest is present a deacon can not vest, or so I have been told.

Yes I am aware of this, but as for the Admin, Joe, and Sharon..... They are part of the clergy if they had this rite done.... I am not aware of many cantors or readers today that have this done.... Most of the time father just says, "Your a reader" or "Your a cantor".

If this is how it happened then no, they are not clergy.

Again, not trying to be a pain.

David

Dear David,

You are most certainly not a pain!

The Roman Rite has renewed the consecration of virgins? In this day and age? Are they sure . . .

I've also read the rite of Monastic Tonsure called "Ordination."

Being a stickler is fine, but language terms can change depending on usage.

There is no question that the Rite of Ordination of Deaconesses was not ever considered part of clerical ordination.

As for the Administrator, Joseph Thur and Sharon, they don't need to become Cantors by "bell, book and candle" so much as they become that by the judgement and calling of the Church.

I'm assuming that they had something "done" to them as they became Cantors .

But the point is Deaconesses were never considered to have a share in the Ministerial Priesthood.

Alex

"There is no question that the Rite of Ordination of Deaconesses was not ever considered part of clerical ordination."

Alex, I have to say my reading does not lead me to this conclusion.

Axios

And yet, you also, from your readings, think that homosexual sex is okay and that pride in announcing publicly about participating such sin is also okay.

Sorry, but you've proven that your judgement, even when from readings, doesn't align with Orthodox or Catholic teachings.

And if Axios declares that his readings lead him to conclude that Jesus Christ was the Son of God, the Second Person of the Trinity, you would be consistent and condemn him for that. I hope.

Has this become a Church and a Forum where a <crude euphemism for a gay person> or <crude euphemism for a gay person>-sympathizer is suspected to lurk behind every posting? What the heck does your message have to do with the topic, Nik(olai)? And in the spirit of irrelevance and ad hominem attacks, what church are you going to join next month when the one you're in now has turned out to be too liberal?

Herbigny,

Like I said a couple of pages ago the role of the Deaconess has been reduced to the equivalent of what in a Western Church would be an usher. As far as how common they are, well, let me just say that it is entirely possible to go to a single or to a few Ethiopian Churches and never see one. They have no pastoral role except with other women. What I said about allowing them to teach spiritual lessons to the entire Church is my opinion; there is currently no movement or demand of any significance to that affect in our Church.

But I totally agree with you; this should be a non-issue to those of us who already have it. I just pray that my Latin sisters will see their chance to become Deaconesses soon.

God Bless

Selam Aklie,

Could you also write about the role of "debteras" in the Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church?

Are they like the scribes of the Temple in Jerusalem?

What is their contemporary role today?

Alex

1. The role of the deaconess should be restored because (a) it is scriptural and historical; (b) it would fulfill an importan ministry in the Church today; (c) it would establish the legitimate limitations of women's roles within the ordained ministry and emphasize the importance of diakonia as the principal ministry within the Church.

2. Just as monks can be deacons, nuns can be deaconesses, but the role of the monastic is not identical to that of the deacon, particularly in Eastern Christianity. Monastics withdraw from the world, but the emergence of a wide range of apostolates on the Western model have diminished that critical aspect of monasticism and reduced most orders of female religious (one can hardly call most of them nuns in the strict sense)to social service providers (which, by the way, explains why there are so few women clamoring to become female religious these days--if the principal mission of the nun is social service, why not just cut to the chase and become a social service provider, and get better pay, too?). By re-establishing an order of deaconesses, women would be ordained to serve in the world. Moreover, the order would be open to married women, just as the order of deacons is open to married men. This would show that for women, diakonia is a universal ministry of the Church, not merely one limited to those who have taken religious vows.

3. Having reestablished the order of deaconesses, greater emphasis can be placed on restoring true female monasticism in the Eastern Catholic Churches, a monasticism focused principally on prayer and contemplation, and not on worldly apostolates. This should be paralleled by an attempt to redirect male monasticism in the Eastern Catholic Churches by a gradual suppression of the "Eastern rites" of the various religious orders such as the Franciscans, Dominicans, Jesuits, and so forth. Such orders and apostolates are alien to the Eastern monastic tradition, are a blatant latinization, frequently imposing rules of the order that contravene the Tradition of the Eastern Churches (Taft has written on his own compromises in that regard) and thus create the kind of "parallel spiritualities" which are condemned by the Liturgical Instruction.

I could beat you around the head some more, but I think this will do for now.

Dear Mar Stuart,

Your comment on deaconesses allowiing female monastics to focus on their primary calling in terms of prayer and contemplation is excellent and a great reason for restoring the order.

Go easy on David when you beat up on him - he's a delicate commodity!

Alex

I'm sorry, Alex, but that's just plain wrong. There is no doubt, looking at the ordo for the ordination of a deaconess, which is essentially identical in several different and independent sources, that we are dealing here with "cheirotonia"-a "major ordination". It takes place BEHIND the iconostasis; it takes place at the point in the Liturgy as the ordination of a deacon; it uses the same words as the ordination of a deacon; and most importantly, it uses the formula "The divine grace. . . ", which is used only for the ordination of major clergy (it is not found in the ordination rites for acolyte, lector or subdeacon). Rubrics indicate that the deaconess received communion with the major clergy, coming immediately after the deacons, and that the received each species of the Sacrament separately, just as do priests and deacons. Legally, they were ranked with the major clergy in the Codex Theodosianus and the Codex Justinianus.

The research is just overwhelming, and attempts to deny the clerical status of deaconesses is on par with those Latins who try to prove that the Apostles lived with their wives as brother and sister.

There are deaconesses noted in the ecclesiastical records of the Church of Constantinople in the 13th and 14th centuries, and even late elsewhere, which indicates that the office survived the Latin occupation of Constintinople. The office only fell into desuetude after the Turkish conquest, for reasons that are far from clear. But, like infant communion in the Latin Church, there is no doctrinal or pastoral document that has abolished it--so, theoretically, any bishop can ordain a woman to be a deaconess, if he has the cojones. Just as any Latin bishop could start giving the rites of initiation to infants in their proper order and at the proper time--but I don't expect any of them to have the cojones at all.