www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization Advice in critical situation

Dear Forum,

I am opening up about an experience that happened yesterday in church. Please bare with me.

Our cantor has been on vacation for a few Sundays, so I, as assistant cantor, was asked to lead the singing. Our pastor is currently filling in at the Los Angeles parish because they do not have a priest. To fill in at our church, we have a newly certified bi-ritual priest. He is doing well for his fourth Sunday going solo. However, he is not Ukrainian so he cannot intone in Ukrainian.

Since our pastor is gone, we have been having combined services with the intonations in English and the responses ususally sung in Ukrainian. This is what we usually do at our parish to pacifiy those who need some Ukrainian in the service.

We come to the Litany before the Our Father. The priest attempts to intone in Ukr. but I had not noticed because I am in charge of around ten singers. The "choir" had agreed to throw in some English because the church was half American and we were doing the majority in Ukrainian. We respond "Lord Have Mercy" and "Grant this O Lord" while the priest intones in Ukrainian.

Since he was rusty, he had switched to English when a parishioner was already storming to the back. I am tapped on the shoulder and this parishioner is in my face _screaming_ saying things like "you have no right to respond in English when he intones in Ukrainian and when he intones in English you respond in English!"

He said other things of which were rude saying I have no right to be leading the choir blah blah because I happen to be an ignorant 17 year old etc.

The whole chuch heard. The Altar Servers heard inside the Holy Place. Everyone was turned around watching this scene unfold before them.

I immeadiately set down my book and exited the church because I did not want a fight in church. I was stopped when I got outside by people saying they cannot believe what happened etc. they wanted me to lead the singing etc. but I knew I couldn't stay in church because I was sinning because I was so angry and because I was thinking bad things about this man. I calmly got in my car and drove down the sreet and parked on the side of the road and relected on what happened. I was so stunned, shocked, emberressed and hurt I didn't know what to do.

I thought of returning for Communion however I was so angry I was in no shape to recieve Eucharist.

I came back an half hour later to pick up my mom and people were still coming up to me to say they were so sorry for the incident. We then left to the Ukr. Orthdox chruch for their picnic where I was approached by the parishioner in question. He did not apologize but rather _justified_ what he did and said it need to be done. I said nothing.

Now I ask you for advice. I have talked to my priest and he says to pray about it. I do not want to attend this church for a good while. I think if I see the man I will be angry and cause myself to sin. I need a breather I feel. What should I do?

He is on the parish council and is expected to be removed and a apology is expected not only to me, but to the parish because of his conduct during liturgy. I am not asking for the apology for revenge, because he distrupted the faithful who were praying and preparing to recieve Eucharist.

I know this has been a lot and I appreciate comments and discussion and your advice on what I should do.

In IC XC,
ukrainiancatholic
sinner and diak

Dear Ukrainian Catholic brother in Christ,
First, you have my complete sympathy (for whatever that may be worth) and I am sure the sympathy of others.
Next, to quote Psalm 4:4 - "Be angry but do not sin"! Holy anger can advance a good cause; sin never does.
And to quote Bishop Kallistos (Ware): "Do not grumble. PROTEST! But do not grumble!" Bringing this painful outrage to the attention of the Forum is a positive step - a factual, calm letter to the relevant bishop would also be a positive step.
Oddly enough, one of the first things to do is to speak - as peacefully as you possible can - with the priest who served the Divine Liturgy at which this altercation took place. The priest is also at this moment in need of some reassurance that the ethnolinguistic fanatic is not speaking for the parishioners. In this connection, it would be well to make sure that the parishioners fully appreciate that the reason for the substitute priest is itself painfully simple - there are not enough priests to go around. This requires us to appreciate the grace of the Sunday Divine Liturgy, no matter what the linguistic mix (or mix-up!) may be. Confusion happens from time to time; that is inherent in the human condition. But that is no reason to abuse people or start a shouting match, especially in Church - and at such a moment.
My "advice" to the ethno-linguistic fanatic (advice which he will not want!) is that he needs to realize that the Church is not there to cater to his peculiar linguistic preference. If language is what matters to him, I can readily think of three choices: a) start a language school (in which he may teach Ukrainian or whatever other language he likes), b) move to Ukraine or c) join the Dazhboh cult.
To be 17 years of age is not an offense against anybody or anything of which I am aware. Nor does your posting give any evidence of ignorance (on your part, that is - your assailant does not seem to be over-educated, to put it mildly).
What to do to separate anger from sin? The answer can be expressed easily, although the process is far from easy: at the earliest possible moment, PRAY and ask God to remove the bitterness from your heart. It will be among the most difficult prayers you have ever offered, and it will succeed.
You were probably right to think that at that specific moment you were not in the best spiritual condition to receive Holy Communion.
Apart from the presence of the ethno-linguistic fanatic, I hope the picnic was nice!

Difficult to advise on your reaction to stay away from that parish for a good while, but my instinct is to advise you to do nothing of the kind - stay put, continue to work with the liturgical music, and leave it to others to make it clear to the ethno-linguistic fanatic that further episodes of misconduct will not be tolerated.
As to apologies, I place little confidence in coerced apologies - unChristian of me perhaps, but that's me. If the man is genuinely repentant, that's another matter. In any case, he must either change his behavior or go and offer his concerns where they belong (wherever that may be).
Hope that my present words have been of at least some slight help. Incognitus

Slava Jesu Kristu,

Angry parishoners can be such fun. As a Cantor myself, the petty side of me would say to do exactly the opposite of what this guy said at the next Liturgy just to annoy him. That, however, would be un-Christian and disrespectful to God(albeit fun).
That being said, I agree with Incognitus in that the Priest needs to be involved. He is, afterall, our ultimate boss as Cantors. His instrucitons supercede the rest.


Dmitri

Agree with Incognitus - and I admire your restraint.

Would also suggest that in chatting with the priest (who probably is wondering just WHAT to expect now!) you mention how the incident happened - it's one of those perfectly understandable, not terribly uncommon things (being a cantor provides unparalleled opportunities to make a fool of yourself - publically & repeatedly )that sometimes happen when you toss languages back and forth. Not all of our churches have acoustics or sound systems of the sort that let the folks in the back immediately recognize what the folks in the front are singing - unless they are paying CLOSE attention. (Personally I would be driven CRAZY in a Liturgy where the priest intoned in one language and we were expected to respond in another - I have been "socialized" to respond in the language and key the priest hands me.)

Anyway, the appropriate response to an inadvertent linguistic bobble (if it even really was one) is to nod your head and move on. Evidently the gentleman in question hasn't learned that.

You haven't done ANYTHING wrong. Please don't avoid the church because of one hothead. Can I throw out another suggestion? Pray for the guy. Really. (Some say it's the best "revenge" ) Sounds like he needs it. It gives you an "out" if you see him, too. When you start getting angry, stop and PRAY for him, even if you have to do it with gritted teeth.

Miss Manners suggests "killing" such people "with kindness." As Christians, we can stack the deck, load the dice and cheat by dragging God into the conspiracy.

Best,

Sharon

UK,

Welcome to the world of cantoring!

In every church their is a peanut gallery (those who never participate but always attack others who do). Don't take it personal when someone yells at you. Just smile and hand them the cantor book and invite them to lead the next time. It usually shuts them up.

The cantor is a 'minister of humility.' You learn to take it from both sides of the iconostasis. Say "yes, sir!" or "yes, ma'am!" and then begin studying for the next liturgy.

Sometimes, there are those who relentlessly push your buttons at every liturgy. One learns to chuckle when one is accused of changing a parishioner's religion by simply changing a tone. Ouch!

Having someone create a scene in the temple is another story. These things should not be argued in church, but brought to the pastor's attention. You did good and didn't lower yourself to the gutter level of the man in question. This man definitely has issues.

He should be asked to make a public apology before the congregation. If not to you then to the people. He disrupted the liturgy and this was not just before you or a stunned congregation, but before God. But, of course, your pastor will decide on the appropriate remedy.

FYI: Do you know that it is a felony in the U.S. to disrupt a religious service?

Once, when our eparchy promulgated changes to the Paschal season, we got hit bad with grief-stricken parishioners. All sorts of hissy-fits sprang up and they approached us huffing and puffing. The liturgical mandate didn't have a date on it, who it was from, and why the changes were being made, so we tossed it aside. It wasn't worth the grief when the eparchy didn't arm us with an explanation why we had to change things. You eventually learn what is worth engaging in.

I would take the counsel of the parishioners seriously when they tell you that they want you to return and lead. The believers have spoken. Don't give up because of a foolish old man. He's one against many. Who, in your heart, will you listen to? Forget your experience of shock and awe. You're on a mission from God. Get a pair of shades, dude.

Cantor Joe Thur

You deserve an apology. Some one needs to talk to that man. To have and display that kind of anger in Church. Its shameful. Why should you have left? The police should have been called and have escorted him out of Church.

Nicky's Baba

dear UC:

Ditto to the above comments.

I can only add:

PLEASE DON'T LEAVE!!!

He is the one who should leave, or at the very least be assigned to the rank of penitents.

If he had a problem, HE should speak to the priest about it! What authority did he have to critize your authority or leadership!

But as you know, such people exist - esp. in our Church (seems to me) (maybe they exist in other churches I don't know, but they certainly exist in ours.)

As as you see we have all (or at least most of us) have had some sort of experience like that but we survive by God's mercy and grace. And with such experienes under our belt, God uses us to be His icons in the world, sinners though we are.

Anyways Church is where Christians gather, don't let the pagans take over!

You did absolutely well.

As you see, the entire parish is with you! No one blames you or faults you for anything. As for his behaviour, we all know what the parishioners think about him...

How sad it would be for the parish and parishioners if you left! And they were left with the him instead

And some good might even be squeezed out of this hurtful incident - e.g. other mova(language)-fascists (as one Ukrainian Studite monk referred to such people) in the parish might learn a valuable lesson in how to curb their passions and get their priorities straight!

Courage UC!

c.i.x.

Herb

AMDG
Dear UC,
Don't let some freak prevent you from fulfilling your Sunday obligation!!

That guy's obviously got some supressed anger from when he was beaten as a kid. :rolleyes:

Be not afraid!!!!

In Christ and Mary,
LatinTrad

I think that you were right to be angry, and you were also right in taking your anger elsewhere. We are, after all, supposed to settle our disputes with our brothers before coming before the Altar of God.

Form and tradition are important - but they are important to us much more than, I suspect, they are to the the Lord in heaven. I'm sure that He doesn't care a bit if we sing and pray in English or Ukrainian or Swahili or whatever language we happen to sing and pray in, because He knows 'em all - and He knows each and every one of us - and He knows if we are sincere or not (no matter how pretty we may sing or how carefully we may word our prayers).

Sounds like you were doing the best you could to accomodate everyone in your congregation and you came up against a difficult person who can't be made happy. What he said and did was most uncharitable and inappropriate. Perhaps, one can hope, he will reflect upon it and apologize of his own accord. Perhaps you might reflect upon this more and determine to forgive him in any event, which I'm sure is a difficult thing.

You sound like you are wise beyond your years. Maybe this curmodgeony guy can learn something from your example?!

Even if he were completely and 100% right in his objection, he was still completely and 100% wrong to interrupt you (and the Liturgy!) so rudely. What a maroon!!!

I think you handled it very well. In fact, I bow in homage to your restraint!!

Dear ukrainian catholic:

For a young man of your age to have held your own with such restraint and holy humility is a tribute to your letting the Holy Spirit be at work in you.

You may need a break. But let prayer and the advice of your priest weigh the most in your decision. Otherwise you might be tempted to sinful pride and that pride ruin the good work you are already doing. Then, score one for the Enemy who is always trying to break up the work of the Church and the work of Christ.

I'll keep you in my prayers. In the meantime pray

Forgive, O Lord, Lover of the souls of men, those who hate us and those who maltreat us, and cause not one of them to be lost because of me, a sinner . . .

In Christ,

BOB

Dear UkrainianCatholic:

It sounds like your parish is very fortunate to have such a generous young man as yourself to give his time and talent. I bet there are alot of folks in your church praying for you, don't let them down. Continue your good work. And I agree with those above, for you to pray for this angry man. He must be miserable about something (not making excuses for him), but for the sake of his soul he needs prayers to help him come to terms with his anger -- it is obviously poisoning him.
denise

Dear Ukrainiancatholic,

I think you are a jewel of the Christian Church and have wisdom far beyond your years.

You are clearly talented and a dedicated eastern Christian. My only reservation is that while I would happily help bear your burdens, modesty prevents me to "bare with you"

Axios

The person who did that to you was both incredibly rude with no manners and also more than lacking in Christian charity.

Please do not abandon your service. And do talk with your pastor about the incident when he returns. (You might also want to talk to the supply priest. He is probably wondering what kind of asylum he wandered into.)

You did right in removing yourself from the source of the anger and hatred. I hope the perpetrator is embarassed enough to cause serious reflection on his incredibly stupid behavior. Unfortunately, however, he'll probably show up again next Sunday emboldened by the fact that he stood up for "what is correct".

(Too bad he's probably a citizen - otherwise: "Hello, Immigration?")

Blessings!

Dear U-K;

I am sorry you had to go through that ordeal. Perhaps THEOPHAN's idea of taking a small break would be helpful.

When things get too heated, I visit another parish for one Sunday and then come home. There is nothing "disloyal" about it.

Hang in there and best of luck!
Stefan