www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization Advice in critical situation

Hi,

With emotions that make tears flow I read your account of the incidents, and the first thing I need to do is to tell you that I admire you. You proceeded through all this showing your deep Christian values.

But precisely because of this, I will dare to "demand" even more of you.

This might be a time to consider if the particular service you are performing for the Parish is adequate.

From your account, it is easy to know that you are right in your perceptions and intentions.

But Christian Service is not only about being right.

Maybe your time and talent are misplaced. Maybe there is another ministry in which you could help and that experience be more fulfilling for you and even more useful for your parish?

This other parishoner has the right to know why are your responses in English when the celebrant uses Ukrainian, but he also has the obligation to discuss this issue with you at some time OTHER than during the liturgy, and of course, insulting you because of your age is both stupid and un-Christian to the extreme.

While he still has the right to get his answer, he also needs to be corrected. I'd offer him both if I were you, but you have wisdom enough to decide this on your own.

Your priest's recommendation to pray is correct, of course, but incomplete. These things should not go unresolved, for they will come back in the future. You need to close the issue with charibale action. You need it, he needs it and your parish needs it.

As for Dr. John's comment:

I hope this is a just tasteless joke. The consequences of involving the Bureau of Immigration are totally out of proportion of the insults. This would be uncharibable, and it would wipe out all the morally laudable actions taken so far.

You are in our prayers.

Shalom,
Memo.

I'm sure Dr. John was just kidding.

But it does remind me of something a priest once said to me at the local Ukrainian parish. He was obviously born in Ukraine, but felt that all the services should be in English, because English is the vernacular in this country. He said the only reason he figured they had Ukrainian services at all was because the "older folks" were so used to them. I noticed he had a point - a lot more young people, including young Ukrainian born people, at the English Liturgy.

I figure vive la difference and offer both.

Dear UkrainianCatholic,

For 17, you show a lot of strength and maturity. Most of us wouldn't have had the guts to step in for the cantor in the first place.

This thug humiliated himself, not you. First of all to let loose such rage right before the "Our Father", or right after the Consecration speaks volumes about his faith. There are many people who mouth the words during Liturgy but miss the point entirely. He sounds like one of them.
You were right to walk away. Think about the consequences of staying and lowering yourself to his level? You definitley took the high road here. If you need a week to pull it together take it. Should you leave? No way! Pray for God's help to forgive the old guy, and be thankful you aren't his kid!

Sam

Bravo to you for your time, talent, fortitude and grace! You set a fine example for our youth -- I would pray that there be more like you! First, a breather is sometimes in order -- but do not let the actions of this person drive you from your loves -- Christ, your church, and your cantoring! Second, I wouldn't advise turning your vocation and avocation elsewhere -- your cantor wouldn't have left you in a position to cantor if you weren't readyand willing to do it! There's always rotten apples in no matter what barrel (uhn profession or talent) you live. Third, speak to the celebrating priest AND speak with your own priest. Fourth, do not confrtont this parishioner again. If he chooses to approach you, use your grace -- be polite and direct him to Rev. Father -- with a smile! Keep up your terrific mission! I applaud you! Mrs. H.

UC,

Well, I think the forum has spoken.

Cantor Joe Thur

Forum,

Khrystos po sered nas, Christ is amoung us.

Much prayers of thanksgiving for all of your advice and help during these few days. I have recieved many phone calls these past few days from parishioners.

It looks like he will be removed from the Pastoral Council because "he is not displaying Christian and contructive leadership."

My father called him and he was very defesive of what he did and wants to discuss it face to face, which isn't possible because my parents leave tommorow for several weeks.

I do not think I will be at church this Sunday. The main cantor won't be there either so I think the people will have to fend for themselves. I more than likely will attend the Byzantine or Orthodox church. I am afraid if I attend church, I will not be in a forgiving and open heart because I will be uncomfortable because I know I will sin everytime I see him and reflect on the situation.

I will fast and pray until this Sunday, before I make a final decision, in order to quiet my soul and listen....

Thank you all again for your Christian love and support.

-ukrainiancatholic
unworthy diak and sinner

O Lord, in your anger rebuke me not,
chasten me not in your wrath;
Have pity on me, O Lord, for I am weak;
heal me. O Lord, for my bones are troubled,

And my soul is troubled exceedingly
but you, O Lord, how long?

Return, O Lord, and free my soul,
deliver me for the sake of your love.
For in death no one remembers You,
and in the Abyss, who will sing your praise?

I am exhausted with my moaning:
shall I weep every night upon my bed
and drench my couch with tears?
My eyes are troubled with weeping,
I am worn out because of all my enemies.

Begone from me, all you evil-doers,
for the Lord has heard my voice of lament;
The Lord has heard my appeal,
the Lord has acceded to my prayer.

Let all my enemies be greatly shamed and vexed.
let them at once be routed and mightly brought down.


From the Sixth Psalm of David, King of Israel
-A Prayer in TIme of Trail-

Dear UC,

I have deliberately stayed out of this being Latin .

However things like this are not unheard of among us too.

It has caused you great pain and you have coped with it well.

I am glad that members of your Parish are supporting you - that's as it should be and they obviously feel that the incident should not have happened.

Please pray about this weekend - if your cantor is still away and you decide for what are good reasons to go elsewhere this Sunday [ and I don't think any of us would blame you ] please consider one thing - are you 'punishing' the Parish for the actions of one foolish man ?

Whatever you decide my prayers - and I am sure the prayers of all of us here, will be with you.

May our Blessed Lady, Mary ever virgin, Mother of us all, and my beloved Mistress keep you safe in Her most tender care.

Anhelyna [the lopsided Latin]

Anhelyna,

I do not mean to punish them, butrather let them sing without their two leaders.

However, IMHO the parishioner is question should lead the singing and do the Apostol and tropars and kondaks in Ukrainian without any music, all from memory.

Ah but you see UC, if you and the Cantor are both absent the Parish have lost their leaders and whether you mean to punish them or not - they will be punished as they will have to rely on their own resources. And after all it was not the Parish who offended - just one foolish man. A parish which is used to being led by cantors , musically falls apart if left to their own devices

I do think though that your other suggestion is very well worth working on He [ the parishioner who thinks he knows best] should be asked to act as Cantor - and as you say - do everything from memory. A truly brilliant solution.

Now can you manage to get the Priest to co-operate with that ?

Anhelyna

UC:

A parish is like a family. Everyone has some old curmudgeon in the extended family. He's often the one no one tells anyone about or mentions when one is trying to impress someone. He's everyone's "old uncle Sad for lack of a good name to cast aspersions on.

No one gives up because of what he says. Most of the family lets him blast off and then ignores him or simply tells him to sit down.

I have to agree with the people who have counselled you to stay the course. You have a God-given gift that belongs to your family, your parish. Don't bury it in the ground for this Sunday. Your parish counts you as one of its leaders and your persistence in the face of trial will confirm their high opinion of you in that so many have contacted you to tender support.

You may need a rest, but don't take it while the regular cantor is away. It'll take a lot out of you, but so did the Passion take a lot out of Our Lord. When they slapped Him and spit on Him, He didn't even open His Mouth. Imitate Him. Go in there next Sunday and show them what a Christian does. He takes the blows and thanks God for being insulted for the work done for the Glory of God.

I've put you into my prayers so that you don't fall and that you don't give up.

Christ is indeed in our midst. As He promised, He is and always will be.

In Christ and with you in spirit,

BOB

UC-

I agree with Anhelyna. If your regular cantor isn't going to be there then sorry buddy- you have to be there. I sincerely doubt the guy would get away with this type action twice.
Sometimes as adults we just have to suck it up-this is the kind of stuff that separates the men from the boys.

Don't worry. We will all be with you in spirit this weekend! Go!

Sam

It is discouraging whenever we witness parishioners (or clergy) at their worst behavior. If the situation is not fixed, people will be reluctant to risk serving as cantors in the future in the parish, as long as the instigator gets away with his behavior. I hope that the parish priest is able to take corrective action. Otherwise, he will have increasing problems finding help for his own ministry. Fortunately, he has many possible channels available to help you depending on what he finds best in your parish- key parish leaders, family members, caring confrontation, etc.

I hope this doesn't permanently discourage you, and that you are able to get back on track, but without key support it could continue not to be a pretty picture. I speak from personal experience where 2 readers and a choir director eventually left an OCA parish, because the rector would not intervene in such stuff.

Dear UC:

Aren't Christians fun!?!

Actually, most organized groups, religious or secular, have their share of criticizers.

Here's a suggestion based on a personal experience...

Our mission church must set up and take down EVERYTHING each time we have a Liturgy, as we meet in a Catholic school gymnasium. Of course, it's hard to find folks who will come an hour or more before Liturgy to help set up. One of the more labor-intensive tasks is setting up chairs (yes, I know, we could do away with them entirely).

Anyway, one Sunday following Liturgy, one or our members told the guy who handles chair setup to put four inches of space between each chair so people's shoulders didn't touch. For a split second I was sure I'd have to pry J's hands away from the guy's neck. Instead, J turned to him and calmly said: "We are here at 8:30 every Sunday morning. You are more than welcome to join us and to make sure the chairs are placed the way you want them." The guy turned around and walked away. Nothing more was said.

So...consider, asking this man if he would like to help cantor, as he must have vastly more experience than you...a "mere" 17-year-old.

Good luck and God's grace.

UC,

Well, once again, the forum decided: you should return to cantor and the elderly gentleman should be invited to cantor too. Since he is such the expert at such matters, I am sure his talent and vast knowledge will be a plus. Throw the ball back in his court.

I agree with the idea that leaving the cantor stand vacant (due to pride?) in order to teach a lesson is misguided. It was the people who support you and want you to stay, not some misguided crank. Think of how they would feel if they were left to lead themselves? It takes an amount of courage to lead others in singing. They need your courage, and returning to take the lead again will make them much more proud (and relieved).

The cantor is a minister of humility. Cantors are also a very sensitive lot. By not being there to lead cantor will be a form of punishment for the people, who are not guilty of this man's sin. If you someday had a child who threw a tantrum at a store and totally embarrassed you, would you abandon him/her and all your other children as a form of punishment? Parental love goes beyond selfishness.

Marriage and children are a great opportunity to knock down selfishness a degree or two. My wife has served in the Latin Church for years in music ministry. She was responsible for starting at least three music ministry groups before coming to the Byzantine Catholic Church. She now serves in our little schola doing harmony and chanting the pripiv melodies during vespers. Since she began attending my church back in our dating days, she always gave me suggestions how to improve my cantor skills. Today, after every liturgy, she gives me a lecture on what I did wrong. :p I never earn a star.

So, get used to it. Can't let the cantor stand remain empty because of issues. Ultimately, its all for the glory of GOD, not us.

God bless!
Joe Thur