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Joe,

Pretend east or real east?

K.

Dear Joe,

I agree with you. The behavior described above is not that of most Latin Catholics who love the Tridentine Mass. Thanks for reminding us of this.

Steve
JOY!

Real East. Although with the priest facing the same direction of the people can lead to a very beutiful Liturgy. I much prefer the priest to be facing real East along with everyone else. Of course the priest should face the people at key points in the Liturgy such as the Ecce Angus Dei. The Communion rail should also be returned to us Latins. Standing is a sign of reverence to Byzantines, not to Romans.

Joe Zollars

Joe,

And if facing the real east and facing the people are the same, you have no objection?

K.

Dear Kurt,

Well, I think many can agree to "turn their backs" on this kind of thinking . . .

Do liberalism and cynicism share similar philosophical roots, d'ya think?

Alex

Joe,
When ever I watch the Mass on EWTN they are facing east.....

No wait, I'm sorry, its my Television that is facing east!


David

Does that mean that your TV gets all the 'graces' and you don't?

Oy, such a problem!

Dear Dr. John,

Add to this the fact that, on most of the television shows I watch, they all keep on saying, "Go West, young man . . ."

Another indication of RC propaganda infiltration ?

God bless y'a, Doctor John, God bless y'a!

Alex

Glory to God for all things!

MK

[ 02-11-2002: Message edited by: Michael King ]

Dear Michael,

May God forgive me a sinner and I'll readily leave here for good if that is the interpretation of my little, silly joke that you have!!

I will leave here immediately, for good. Obviously, things like this indicate that I've outstayed my usefulness, if any.

That was not my intention at all, Friend.

It was a general quip that is applicable to those who don't want to go to Church period.

It had nothing to do with you.

I apologise, and obviously God has shown me that I waste your time and others' as well.

Alex

Dear Friend, Dr. Alex:

I think that I've missed something here (whatever was said by M. King, must have been taken off), but want to indicate that I and many of us find your posts most helpful and worthwhile. Your command of the matters pertaining to our church and other churches too, is among the most extensive that I've seen and your polite and caring demeanor makes you a true Christian gentleman, reminding us all of the sense of propriety we should have towards each other.

I am not always able to respond to posts right away, but am glad that I caught this one. I am pastoraly concerned about these remarks and, if you were serious about leaving, kindly ask you to stay. As a priest, I offer my humble and unworthy blessing in your continued teaching role on our forum. You waste no one's time to even the very least extent and to me, you represent a much needed anchor of knowledge and sanity in the deliberations here.

Your Brother in Christ,

Priest Joe

Father Joe,
Father Bless,

Yes, I deleted most of the post that I earlier sent-I'm afraid that I got a little too upset at what was being said, and I let my temper get the best of me.

I definately second your view-Alex is a very knowledgeable poster whose contributions here are most welcome!

Kissing your right hand,

Michael

Bless me a sinner, Reverend Father!

I think I really have outlived my usefulness here.

My posts of late have become rather angry, terse and political, rather than spiritual.

I spend too much time defending the Ukrainian Church, talking about the Moscow Patriarchate and other political matters that leave me feeling less of a person.

In any event, I'm off to follow some employment leads and partake of some reflection and reading moving into the period of the Great Fast.

I thank you, but I am no teacher.

Only a bad student!

Alex

To Steve: Thank you for your comments regarding my remarks. I'm very glad that my posts are helpful to you. It makes it all so worthwhile. After all, that is the purpose of our forum - to learn from each other and thus grow in Christ.

Alex: We can all get angry at times, especially with regards to church politics and matters that we know are not right. Some things just get us more excited than others. What is important is that Christian humility and charity are expressed, which you have done. As I've said, before, no one is perfect. We just try to do our best to become better, with Our Lord's help and grace and to give each other a break now and then.

I can appreciate M. King's remark that there are parishes in all denominations that one may prefer not to attend, including Orthodox ones. Each parish is unique and, as many have said, some just do a better job with liturgy than others. This reflects both the particular celebrant's own style or energy for celebrating and the effort exerted by cantors, choirs, and congregations in participating in the prayers of the service.

But, I do not like it when people are uncharitable towards others here or overly critical of the accepted practice of churches that are only following their customs or what their hierarchy dictates. We can offer constructive criticism for sure, based on good liturgical and historical principles, as many do, but putting personal likes and dislikes over those of others, does not contribute anything of value.

There are a couple of thing that don't sit well with me about the original posts by M. King. I don't think that we should encourage dissatisfied Tridentine Catholics to find a haven in some of our "latinized" parishes. This would be very counterproductive to both the proper direction that our own church is pursuing and the teachings of the universal Catholic Church, found particularly in the document "Orientalum Ecclesarium" (yes, it's from Vatican II). To suggest that our parishes which employ a great deal of latinizations serve a purpose in housing those who are at odds with the Roman Church is contrary to good ecclesiology from both Roman and Byzantine perspectives.

If some of our parishes do have latinizations that have become integral to a particular generation of our parishioners, then we do have to be careful about how we deal with these situations, but to perpetuate them to an even greater extent, for the sake of refugee RCs is not the same thing as pastoraly dealing with their presence where this has been longstanding.

Also, I can't say that I agree with the parish that attempted to have a mass facing away from the people (liturgical east) and celebrate the others in the style currently normative for the Roman Rite and further, I don't think that it, " flies in the face of historic Latin Christendom." What type of confusion could this possible create? Every bishop wants to have a degree of liturgical uniformity in his diocese and to start something like this can only raise more questions on the part of the people. Doing what was proposed does "fly in the face" of the currently living Roman Church. I think that it is putting things again, in the wrong order or priority. What would our people say if a certain parish began to celebrate the Divine Liturgy on the tetrapod, facing the people, so that there could be more visible participation from the congregation. Certainly we must have some people in our parishes that would go for that. Would this be acceptable, using the premise of the proposal mentioned? I don't think so.

Just one more comment: For a person that has become Orthodox, Michael certainly knows a lot of details about the RC parishes in his area and obviously still attends the Latin Rite mass. Now, I have no problem with this whatsoever and believe that there should be a greater expression of ecumenical interaction between Catholics and Orthodox, but this is not, unfortunately, what many Orthodox would approve of. If he has left the Roman Church and become Orthodox because of the, quote "horrible Novus Ordo mass" then why is he still filling the pews of the churches that he seems to despise, even if there are those who might offer a mass that is acceptable to him? No offense, please, but, as noted, no one church, priest or person is perfect and I do not have a taste for this type of petty criticism of the liturgy of our Roman brothers and sisters, or of individual priests' style within it, without being constructive.

By the way, will we ever stop referring to the Roman Rite mass as the "Novus Ordo" and just call it what it is, the Liturgy of the Latin Rite? After over 30 years, it is not so "novus" anymore. Priest Joe

Bless me a sinner, Father Joe!

Yes, you are right - we can all get angry and anger itself can be a virtue.

I just find that my converse of late has left me sad and depressed. I don't want to argue with my Orthodox brothers and I don't want them to feel that I am somehow against them or their Church.

I have loved the discussions about spirituality here.

But the anger that I have felt of late, and, regrettably, participated in albeit within the context of a self-righteous attitude (that doesn't make it any better), has led me to believe that I am contributing nothing of value here to anyone, including myself.

Perhaps this is God's way of letting me know there are other things I need to be about doing.

And I know there are.

God bless,

Alex