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Joined: Nov 2001
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Fr. Joe,

You are right on point.

K.

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+AMDG+

Nothing of value? Alex, you have a doctorate and yet you speak nonsensically!

Father, bless. As compared to the Tridentine Latin Mass, the Novus Ordo will still be Novus 200 years hence. smile

Now it is proper to refer to the Tridentine Latin Mass as the Pian Mass or the Gregorian Mass and to the Novus Ordo Mass as the Pauline Mass. But such liturgical slang does make it easier.

Joe Zollars

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Okay, this is my latest kick. Who is the Catholic Miss Manners who decides the "proper" names like "Pian Mass". A not inaccurate term, but I don't see what authority has made it the 'proper' term.

K.

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Dear Alex- Once again, not having been here for all that long, and not actually having been involved with the Byzantine Church that long, I can only comment on one who is still very much in the infancy stage when it comes to Eastern Christianity. Father Joe has mentioned many things that, as usual, I only think but never speak. I do not feel qualified to speak on many issues, but here's my 2 cents. Please do not feel that you have overstayed your welcome. I know it seems that you are in conflict with others often, but remember that in a family, like there is here, that there will always be misunderstandings and disagreements. Usually one family member goes off and shuts themselves in a room or goes for a walk. But as family, we always come back! Think about all the things that would'nt have happened if you had'nt been here. I am sorry for my infantile grasp of things, but I guess ignorance is bliss. Alex, as one who is attending a Ukrainian church, I am grateful for all you have taught me and not ashamed to say I wish I could be there in person for you to teach me more. We all get angry, we all say more than we want to. But Alex, we all come back to the table. God Bless, pray for me a sinner.

Michael.

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Good bye everyone-its been nice participating, but I will no longer be frequenting this forum. As far as I am concerned, this also ends my interest in Catholicism.

For all you on the Gregorian Calender, I hope you have a blessed Fast.

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It was codified as the rite in the west by Pope Pius V.

Joe Zollars

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PS: when discussing the Liturgy, experts and even the Pope himself will refer to the "Tridentine" Mass as the "Mass according to the usage of the Missal of St. Pope Pius V." It is called Gregorian because it makes use of the Gregorain Chants and Pope St. Gregory the Great composed many of the prayers.

Joe Zollars

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Ality,
Wow the taught the bishop a lesson on latin while he derobed?? Let me guess... was it on the filioque?? Hey wait I was there too!! Nice to see you on the forum and hope you are in town soon. I hope the stewardship ministry is going well.
-ukrainiancatholic

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"Unfortunately, the caliber of people that make the effort to
leave the Roman parish and seek out a more "conservative" or
"traditional" church is often the type described by
ukrainiancatholic - stubborn, close-minded, pushy and usually
wrong in their conceptions of the Catholic Church."

I am one of these people described here by Joe and I take umbridge at his taring us all with the same brush. I am a fallen away RC who is comming back to Catholism through the Eastern Church. I've found a lovely Melkite parish that has welcomed me and I would never impose rudeness or any of my old RC ways on the beautiful people and clergy. I have joined to a discussion group and encouraged to bring my western perspective to the topics. These are never intended to impose or dominate. I am a welcomed stranger, always showing respect

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Dear Ron:

I am glad to hear that you have found a spiritual home at your local Melkite parish and are in the process of discovering more about the Byzantine Church. From what you describe, you are following a healthy path to both a broadening of your own personal experience of the church and helping those in the discussion groups to grow by "bringing your western perspective to the topics", which are "never intended to impose or dominate."

This is exactly the type of interaction that many of us here have continually said that we are happy to see and we surely welcome sincere individuals such as yourself, who are engaged in the process of learning from each other through a dialogue grounded on the Christian principles of honesty and respect.

I am saddened that you have read my comments completely out of context. I have taken careful precautions not to "tar you all with the same brush," as you claim. If you read my posts carefully, the operative words in them were "often the type described by ukrainiancatholic" and "All too often, dissatisfied RCs try to find refuge in our church for all of the wrong reasons, namely to find in our churches what they feel they have lost in their own."

About sincere people, as you would appear to be from the description of your participation in the Melkite parish, I gladly wrote,

"For those truly open to the working of the Holy Spirit, this can be an opportunity to grow spiritually and, if it is God's will, eventually come over to the East completely. It is a chance for them to learn and expand their horizons."

The posts here are meant to address a particular type of instance, with which this thread was started and which, from the comments of many, does truly exist in a good number of our parishes. I am sure that you do not consider yourself in the same category as those individuals that have caused disruption in some parishes and, knowing that there are sincere and respectful people like you, that do seek out the Byzantine church for what it authentically has to offer, I was careful to remind everyone that there are clearly many good intentioned and spiritually mature Roman Catholics who may enter the doors of our churches.

Read on my friend and you will see that we are not at all unwelcoming to those who find honest and productive spiritual fulfillment through our rich Byzantine heritage. But that is what it is: "the patrimony of centuries of the Byzantine experience of the Christian faith, the development of the church within the context of particular Eastern and Slavic cultural milieus and, with this solid foundation, its continued application to each subsequent era of human history, as life unfolds." We are not a church of the past, but of the present, building upon what history has given us, always mindful that this must be done through the eyes of faith and particular experience.

"What our Byzantine heritage is not, (as some would unfortunately like to believe), is merely a version of the Roman Catholic Church that appears to be untouched by the reforms of Vatican II, with a different brand of incense and an exotic way to celebrate mass." I know that you realize this and are taking the right approach. What I do ask you to understand is how many of us feel when faced with confrontations from vociferous and uninformed people who are not of your demeanor and do not take the time to sincerely embrace our spiritual heritage for what it truly is, as you have. We, like all living churches, are working within the context of our own current issues and, with God's help, striving to address these matters with an understanding that is firmly grounded in our unique spiritual patrimony described above.

I pray that you will continue to grow in the knowledge of the faith through the spiritual path of Byzantine Christianity. God bless you and all those in your community.

Fr. Joe

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Dear Joe Zollars:

I thank you for your contribution as to the accepted references for the Latin Rite mass. This to me, is very enlightening. I think that the term "Pauline Mass" is a good way to refer to the liturgy as promulgated by Pope Paul VI and that "Pian Mass" can be a helpful alternative to the usual Tridentine term, which may not be completely appropriate when referring to the mass as celebrated before the 1960s. Tridentine today carries with it many implications that have evolved since the Vatican II Council and perhaps is not the best way to denote the former order of the mass. There were many more matters addressed by the Council of Trent than the liturgy and I think that we have lost an awareness of this by solely thinking of that council's influence on the way the mass was celebrated. Thank you for a helpful post. Fr. Joe

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Father, Bless!

Indeed I must thank you for your kind words. The main reason it is innappropriate to refer to the Traditional Latin Mass is what you have mentioned. But we must also remember that the Missal of Pope Pius V was in existance long before the issuance of Qou Primum. It was a local usage and was used to stem the tide of protestantism.

Joe Zollars

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Dear UC:

Glory to Jesus Christ!

I've noticed a similar phenomenon at my parish. There are a lot of folks who seem to be "refugees from the post-Vatican II world." I don't fully understand the phenomena, but, then, I was actually born after Vatican II.

I was brought up in a family with devout Roman Catholic, Ukrainian and Ruthenian Catholic, and a few Russian Orthodox members. We had pretty much every flavor of Eastern European Christianity, actually.

I learned at an early age that there were beautiful traditions and rituals in all of these churches and they are worthy of my respect. Part of showing respect this respect is to attend the Mass or Liturgy and respect those traditions. It sounds like some of the folks you have encountered are not respecting Eastern traditions.

Officially and for the record, I'm a Roman Catholic but I've been attending Ukrainian Catholic and Byzantine Catholic churches as well as Roman Catholic churches for as long as I can remember, and I do belong to a Byzantine parish. (I probably should do the paperwork sometime to transfer. I'm definitely a Byzantine.)

But despite my own Byzantine spirituality, there is absolutely no lack of respect for Roman Catholicism on my part. I love the Roman Catholic Church and its services, whether they are in English or Latin or Italian or Swahili or Chinese or whatever language the people of God choose to address Him in. I simply had been drawn to the Eastern ways for most of my life. Every spiritual journey is a little different.

The reason I am telling you all of these boring things about my own situation is the bottom line: I never went into the Ukrainian or Byzantine church expecting to hear Latin or sit in a pew. I kind of feel sad when I see pews there - they were only a couple in the back of my baba's church for the elderly or injured. By the same token. I never went into a Roman Catholic church expecting to hear Slavonic or sing the Cherubic Hymn. I mean, when one visits a sister church, one should not expect to make it in one's own image, should one? One should participate in the rich traditions and ways of the faith community one is visiting. One should be respectful.

Perhaps one thing your parish could do is try to educate your "refugees from post-Vatican II" in a gentle way as to Eastern traditions and their validity. I've had some luck myself with this with the couple of visitors I've seen who looked around terrified when they heard us pray that the Spirit proceeds from the Father or realize that that isn't Latin they're hearing - I really try to explain gently to them the ancient and beautiful ritual they are participating in. I've had people ask me when we stopped speaking Latin - so I tell them about Slavonic. No one has bitten my head off. I've also had people ask me why we Cross ourselves "backwards" and stand instead of kneel. I tell them the traditions.

Perhaps you might discuss including educational materials on Eastern worship in your weekly bulletins. Our parish runs short pieces on Byzantine traditions - for example, Easter traditions or Forgiveness Vespers or any topic of that sort that might need to be explained to visitors or to people rediscovering their own Byzantine faith or roots.

Sorry for the long winded reply. Hope it helps even a little.

Annie

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Dear Friends,
Christ is among us!
As a parish priest, I too have had some difficulties with a small number of "traditionalist" Roman Catholics coming into my parish. We welcome all, but we ONLY present ourselves as a BYZANTINE Catholic Church. We do not have any traditonal Roman Catholic practices or devotions. What we do maintain is the traditional cycle of Byzantine Christian services and "devotions" (i.e.: Akathists, Moliebens, Vespers, Matins, etc.) We do not have Stations of the Cross on our walls, but have filled such spaces with traditional icons.
Traditionalist Roman Catholics are welcome, and those that have stayed have completely accepted and integrated Byzantine Christianity from infant Communion to the Ladder of Divine Ascent. And since Byzantine Christianity is all we present, I have found that those really interested in the Latin Mass et. al. travel the 40 miles to one of the Lebrevfreite Churches in those areas.

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Quote
Originally posted by Father Vladimir:
Dear Friends,
Christ is among us!
As a parish priest, I too have had some difficulties with a small number of "traditionalist" Roman Catholics coming into my parish. We welcome all, but we ONLY present ourselves as a BYZANTINE Catholic Church. We do not have any traditonal Roman Catholic practices or devotions. What we do maintain is the traditional cycle of Byzantine Christian services and "devotions" (i.e.: Akathists, Moliebens, Vespers, Matins, etc.) We do not have Stations of the Cross on our walls, but have filled such spaces with traditional icons.

Father, bless.

Excellently done Father!

....Let us hope that you have a beard also. <grin>

Quote
Traditionalist Roman Catholics are welcome, and those that have stayed have completely accepted and integrated Byzantine Christianity from infant Communion to the Ladder of Divine Ascent.

Beautiful. Refugee Roman traditionalists that have a reverent respect for their hosts' spiritual patrimony as they do their own are a welcome sight. One wishes they possessed such when they held the reins of power before the Council. I suppose in their case, their trials and experiences in the catacombs while a garrison of Phaetons jumped into the chariot and turned the Roman Church upside down, had made them realize the vital importance of the integrity of the respective traditions of all the Churches, especially the liturgical.

Kissing your right hand,

In IC XC
Samer

[ 03-09-2002: Message edited by: SamB ]

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