www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization Recovery of Tradition

I apologize before I start, since I have a tendency to muddy all points I try to get across. That is why I read much more than I post, but I have to say one little thing.

I attend St. John Chrysostom in Houston, TX., and we are in a bit of a battle for the recovery of our traditions.

Our situation is a bit tricky right now. Fr. Mihalco, who I didn't get to know well enough (which was my fault), was replaced by a Roman Catholic priest from India. The priest did not bring a lot of Latinizations to the church. Of course, I'm not sure if our church could get much more Latin except by changing its name.

At any rate, my wife and I have become much more active in our parish since we first moved here a year and a half ago.

On Superbowl Sunday, our priest said that everyone after liturgy was welcome to see the board meeting. My wife and I went. I cannot tell you how shocked I was to hear not only what was said, but to see how the priest was treated. It made me ashamed.

Problem 1

Father Julian wanted to update our teaching materials. We have plenty of money to buy the kind we need, but the most vocal on the board wanted to use the Roman Catholic books.

Problem 2

Father Julian wanted to have a Lenten class at our church and invite Roman Catholics and others to see our tradition (our priest is a part-time professor at St. Thomas University here in Houston). The most vocal said that no one would come because it was during the week.

Problem 3

We only have one person counting collections. Father said that wasn't a good idea. You guessed it, the most vocal board members opposed this because they said he wouldn't find anyone to do it. I'm an accountant (although a tax accountant) and I can't imagine why anyone would oppose this. It wasn't so much in that they opposed it, but HOW they opposed it.

Problem 4

Some people who have been going to our church do not know which way we cross ourselves, or that we use the same liturgy as the Eastern Orthodox Churches, or that my wife and I aren't going to hell because we take our two-year old for communion. These "some" aren't just attending the church, they are teaching the religious education classes. It's not their fault, because they themselves have never been educated, but I find this situation to be untenable.

Problem 5

The filioque is still used. My wife is in the choir and has arguments about this, but to no avail. I know that some of you here may have different opinions concerning this issue, but it was my understanding that Ruthenian churches in the US were not to use the filioque. Perhaps I am mistaken. If I am, I still ain't a sayin' it.

Fortunately, our ROMAN priest is dedicated to preserving and restoring our traditions (he evens speaks Ukrainian and I'm sure he would be happy to add Slovak and Rusyn to the other nine languages he speaks).

Well, there's the rub. Most Romans going to our church like the liturgy, but like it as it was Latinized and view anyone who follows the tradition as suspicious. The Byzantines like it Latinized and don't want to go through the trouble of thinking about what they are saying and doing. They want to teach our children from the local Roman Catholic books.

Our family's response has been to be what Alex would call "Ultra-Orthodox," although I think he would agree that some of the things I have mentioned should be corrected (and there are multitudes I have left out). We stand and don't kneel. They already think we are going to hell because our son takes communion, so what do I care what they think about us standing. A lot of the people there think we are liberal nuts trying to oust the Pope or make a married woman Pope.

If there was ever a church that was the shining example of why the Orthodox could never trust Rome enough to repair the schism, our church would be the poster child.

We are working very hard to change it. We have talked to our priest about some of our feelings, and our priest brought some of them up to us before we could say anything! We are trying to educate the parish that Byzantine Spirituality is about a lifestyle, not just a liturgy. It's about a way of approaching the unapproachable.

The real issues will begin in Lent with the classes. I have a feeling that some things will be said to a few that will set the church against the priest in a way that will head to Pittsburg. I'm curious to see the reaction.

Sometmes I think it would be easier to go ahead and dox, but I guess that this struggle is the call of Byzantine Catholics.

Man, I could use a beer.

Dear friend,

The creed with the "filioque" is still the official text in the Archeparchy of Pittsburgh. The other US Ruthenian eparchies have removed it. Others on this board can attest to this, I am sure.

I wish you well. Don't stop praying!

Tony

Wow. So the Creed, the basic statement of faith, changes from eparchy to eparchy. That's like putting an Aggie in a round room and telling him to find the corner.

Guess I missed that one. Dallas doesn't use it and they are in the Archeparchy of Pittsburg. Tulsa doesn't say it. Is it optional or am I required to say it?

I expect an answer like, "Only if the fifth is on a Tuesday and your mother's maiden name begins with the letter 'M', in which case your required to say the filioque while standing on one leg and whistling Boomer Sooner."

Well, I stand on one leg whistling Boomer Sooner corrected.

Clarification, that's a TEXAS Aggie in a round room.

Dear, in Christ, Cizinec,

My friend Tony is right, and the official text has the filioque (albeit, in parenthesis). Pittsburgh is the only eparchy not to have formally announced its final demise.

However, there has been approval for the removal, and I think by now, the majority of parishes have taken the initiative. Though the late Metropolitan never issued such an instruction, he did say that it was due, and initiated its demise by his own example in celebration. At hierarchic Liturgy wherever he went, it was not normally taken. It was abolished in the cathedral and the seminary with his blessing. Our new Metropolitan (many years!) is clearly used to the restoration of the text of the creed, as it was prayed in his former eparchy of Parma.

It is time for the 'filioque' to go, finally. But I did approve of Metropolitan Judson's approach, and find that gentle leadership, and careful education tends to accomplish renewal.

Father Julian is a good and experienced teacher, and with some good will, I hope that he will be able to gradually help the community to accomplish liturgical and spiritual renewal. Don't be discouraged!

Let us all pray for one another, and open our hearts and minds to God's will for us.

Elias

Friend,

From my personal experience some parishes in the Archeparchy of Pittsburgh have removed the filioque, even though it is still officially there. Certainly it seems that eventually the text sans filioque will be official as in the other eparchies.

If memory serves me still, in '97 (?) when Passaic made its liturgical changes/restorations (including removing the filioque) an article was published in the ECL (Eastern Catholic Life - Passaic) by Fr. David Petras which discussed the matter. It might be helpful in approaching this.

Tony

Well, it doesn't change, it's just clarified in different ways. It's the same statement of faith, with or without the filioque.

ChristTeen287

Dear CZ~

Sounds like many of the things we deal with constantly in Grand Rapids, except for counting the $$.
:rolleyes:

I think that most of these problems are routine in our parishes that are more isolated from other Greek Catholic parishes. In larger cities such as Chicago, Toronto, Winnipeg, etc. its not so apparent becuse the latin minded people gravitate to one parish and the eastern minded people to another.

As Father Joe, (I think) wisely pointed out last year that many of the changes we aspire towards may take our entire lives, please be encouraged because when everything seems wrong, there are still plenty of things which are right.

Try to focus on one or two things which you feel are going well and devote your time and energy to that.

For example last year for Great Lent, we had Presanctified Liturgy every Friday nite in English. I volunteered to be cantor and it was a very rewarding experience.

For every one positive step it seems though, like we almost take three back. This is not really a bad thing, considering that we are always moving forward even if it is ever so slowly.

If your spiritual journey is lacking, and I assume that you are a resourceful person, (as all of us on this forum are ) that you supplement your experience in church with prayers and devotions in your own home.

Use this board and the Internet to continue to learn, and pray for your parish.

If I could also recommend one more thing, and that is to say a prayer now and again to our dear Metropolitan Andrey Sheptytsky of L'viv (+1944) who labored most of his entire episcopal career to bring about church unity and authentic Eastern liturgical spirit. Most of his desires were not realized in his lifetime.

Hope this helps with out being too "know it all". I just want to know that I understand your dilemma and know that God will give you the stregnth and courage to handle it, and with "peace from on high".

With best wishes to all!!
Stefan-Ivan

Dear CZ,

I just took a virtual tour of your parish and read about its history. It looks like you really have a lot to be happy about there. http://www.stjohnchrysostom.com/Info.asp

I think that it usually takes a little time for a new priest (or parishioner) to make a bond with the old guard, especially one that seems to have labored so committedly to build a church - and that probably sees that church very sincerely as their home. Before that bond is made, it would, unfortunately, be easy for them to mistake suggestions for change as a criticism of the work and love that they have invested in building up their church. But as the bond is forged, it will no doubt become increasingly easy for all to defer to one another.

No, it isn't. For the Eastern Church, this is a principle. The relationship of the Holy Trinity as explained in the original Creed is BASIC to the Faith. That is the Orthodox Faith. Returning to those basic things has to be central to the revival of the Orthodox ethos in the Eastern Catholic Churches.

I have no doubt in Metropolitan Basil's abilities, nor do I have any doubt of Fr. Julian's skills as an educator or preacher(I don't know if you have heard him speak), I'm just sorry that the tradition has been so far lost that it is seen with contempt by some who were entrusted with its care.

The other Ruthenian churches I have attended, including most of the ones in PA, seemed to take that role more seriously. I'm not saying that Fr. Mihalco didn't take it seriously, because I really think he did and does, but that he, Fr. Julian, and anyone else trying to recover the traditions here is faced with a lot of well positioned and, in many ways, misinformed opposition.

I'm not advocating what Jaroslav Pelikan would call "traditionalism", a mindless list of tasks done because "we have always done it that way," but a recovery of authentic Byzantine tradition; an understanding of what we do, why we do it, and a daily implementation of those traditions in our homes and lives. I realize that this is the ultimate goal, but some don't want to start the journey because it's too uncomfortable or because they think they have arrived.

It's just dang frustrating.

Stefan-Ivan,

Thanks for your support. I hate to think of so many others going through this. I think it will take prayer, work, education (of myself as well as of the others in the parish), and perseverance.

djs,

I have often thought of the work that those who founded the parish did to create it, and I give them my utmost gratitude. I can only respond by ensuring that the traditions which we received are passed on.

ChristTeen, (I love that name)

If the filioque isn't necessary and it wasn't included in the creed as determined by an ecumenical council, why add it? I didn't really want to argue about the filioque here. If the Roman's need it for something, I'm not going to go into schism with them over it, I just don't see why it should be added to a tradition that does not require such a "clarification."

Dear CZ,

Great. Because if you go about this worthy work always showing respect, understanding, and humility, it will be fruitful.

Cizinec,

As for problem one, you can tell the Most Vocal that they have no choice in the matter, the only catechetical materials approved for use in the Metropolia of Pittsburgh are those published by God With Us publications. Latin Catholic materials have now place in a Byzantine parish period.

As for number two, tell Most Vocal that you'll never know unless you try. My parish did a Lenten program during the week and we had, on average, 50 people in attendance every week.

As for number three, I believe the Archeparchy published guidelines as to how this is to be handled and it certainly requires more than one person to be present during the counting.

Number four can only be solved by number one. Proper Byzantine Catechesis with the pastor behind it and enforcing it.

Number five is going to be up to the pastor. My parish got rid of the filioque in 2000. It was met with some initial resistance but now everyone recites the creed without the filioque.

In Christ,
Lance

But if I discuss this issue with them the way I discuss it here, I won't be true to the Faith, the Tradition, or be successful.

That's why I read a lot more than post. I always write more harshly than I should.

I suspect that Fr. Julian's classes will be a great success and that some of the folks who think I'm nuts will start their own initiatives to recover the Tradition more fully, including initiatives at home, which is where mine started.

I suppose I will have to be patient on the filioque and will have to wait for the parish to arrive at that decision themselves.

Cizinec:

Let me see if I understood.

You are a member of a byzantine catholic parish in Texas, and your byzantine priest left the parish and then he was replaced by a (modern) Roman priest??? How could that happen?

How can you, the parishioners, handle that? I cerytainly believe that this Roman priest must be a wonderful man, truly respectfulk of your traditions, but he is still a Roman priest. What Mass does he celebrate? I suppose he celebrates a Roman Mass, incorporating some Byzantine elements to the liturgy (I wonder if this is possible) and keeping some of your traditions.

If that is the case, it would not be a byzantine liturgy, but a Western mass with a byzantine appeareance, like a kind of "western rite" antiochian parish.

What bread does he use? even if he uses leavened bread, if this is a Roman Mass, even if it has a good intention, it would be against the prescriptions of his own ritual Church.

In my modest opinion, the appointment of roman vicars to your byzantine parishes is quite a bad idea, when it has happent in the past, it has had bad results.

What would be the possible effect?

Well, we have discussed here, that many Eastern Rite parishes now have first communions, first confessions, statues, "low" liturgies, priests facing the congregation... but if in addition to this, modern priests are requested to celebrate masses there, and leave hosts consacrated in that mass for the communion of the sick, etc... it would harm the image of your Church in the eyes of many Orthodox who have thought about converting to Catholicism through the Eastern catholic Church, which was meant to offer the Orthodox liturgy. And it would also damage the image of your Church in the eyes of many Roman Rite catholics who thought about finding a refuge in the East.