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Brian and Cizinec,

I don't want to argue or even discuss the Filioque here. I've been in far too many arguments of late and don't like it.

All I will say is that I believe both the Eastern and Western formulas to be valid, in accordance with each other, and that they express the exact same Faith. You are, of course, entitled to your own opinions. God be with you.

ChristTeen287

Remie ,

I believe you are very mistaken about the use of Latin priests in Eastern Churches, at least in my Metropolia. Any Latin priest that wants biritual faculties must undergo training to ensure they can serve the Liturgy properly, if they wish to be a pastor (as opposed to just an emergency fill in) there is further training required. A biritual priest serving a Latin Mass in a Byzantine parish is unheard of.

Also biritual priests are the reason why many parishes and missions are able to celebrate Divine Litugry at all. Besides which, in my experinece, they are as faithful to our traditons as any of our own priests. The Latinizations we have or had (other than mandatory celebacy) we took on ourselves, they were not imposed on us by Rome or biritual priests.

In Christ,
Lance

Dear Lance:

yes I am truly misunderstanding this because I don't have so much knowledge about that of bi-ritual priests. I thought that Cezinec meant that a Roman priest was appointed there, not that it was a bi-ritual priest.

Bi-ritual priests have few sense for the Orthodox, and in the Roman Catholic communities I have contact, they are almost unexistent. Actually I don't think that in Mexico, for example, the Roman Bishops would allow bi-ritual priests (actually I don't think theuy know that there are bi-ritual priests), that would help a lot in the case of the eastern parishes here because they have no priests or very few.

I knew about one priest from Canada who is from the Fraternity of St. Peter but he also celebrates the Ruthenian liturgy. How frequent is this?

Remie,

It is quite true that our priest is bi-ritual and is faithful to our tradition (at least from what I've seen so far). The most "orthodox" priest I've ever known was bi-ritual.

It is unfortunate that they don't allow this in Mexico. It is what has allowed us to spread into places that would otherwise not have communities/missions/parishes. They are a real blessing to us. The reason they are probably greater forces for preservation is because they undergo a lot of cultural training. Probably more than Ruthenian priests that come from the communities.

I am truly thankful for the unity that has been brought forth in this thread. I to have suffored the problems of the latinizers.Yet to all these problems I have a solution. In the Northwest we have a champion.His name is Rev Joseph Stancichar.He is the link between the past and the future.His whole life has been in the church. He has wonderful insight to the problems that we face and I recommend that if you want to know how it was done in the old country that you call him.

Dear Cizinec, there has been some great advice already given in this forum. But take heart and don't give up. It is like a ladder that has to be taken one rung at a time, always up.

Remember in Tulsa Father Gary started from scratch, and has made that into a nice little community. Father Roman Galadza didn't always have what he has at St. Elias in Canada now. He started in a gym of a Roman Catholic school, and then moved into a former prison chapel for several years. Take a look at www.saintelias.com [saintelias.com] and see what they have worked up to over the last twenty years.

I have personally seen that positive change can happen. But it takes time, education/ catechesis, patience and charity with all of those in the parish community.

A parish that I assist with currently has gone from refusing children communion, kneeling for the Divine Liturgy on Sundays, filioque in the creed, etc. to a parish that gives all infants who are brought forward communion, has at least one of the Hours before every Divine Liturgy, and is developing a mission outreach. We will even be removing the pews this month.

If you would have told me even ten years ago that anything of the sort would be possible in that particular parish, I would have laughed. But this change was not accomplished through hyperoriental browbeating or overt forced "traditionalism" but by patience, education/catechesis, and vision by the clergy.

Give Roman a hug for us. Is he old enough to read that children's Divine Liturgy book yet?

Subdeacon Randy

Hey Diak,
I have heard lots about the parrish in Tulsa. I have had a hard time finding it when on leave.I also know of another misson in Whichita that celebrates in the hospital.I think that South East Kansas would be a gold mine for a mission because of all the lost souls that are suffering in that region.

Yes Chad,

Fr Joseph is a fine example of an RC priest fully embracing and restoring the traditions of the Byzantine Church. Not all biritual priests are "guilty" of "latinizations".

BTW, what do you mean his parents "brought the Ruthinans (sic) to America"? Were the Stanichars ship owners?

Interesting. For me, "how it was done in this old country" is a laudable standard: it respects the people, the patrimony, the saints of our church - it respects our church as a actual church. I submit, however, that many would find this standard woefully lacking vostochnik-ness.

Dear djs,

I don't know how it is in your Church, but in mine a "Vostochnik" tends to suggest in the minds of many people a propensity toward Russification at worst, or else imposing an artificial standard of "Easternization ready or not, people" at best.

Alex

Dear Alex, you bring up a good point. I have heard "vostochnik" used both in a complimentary way and a derogatory way (and have been the recipient of both ends of this epithet).

By recovering our traditions and particularity we are being true to our own identity as Eastern Catholics (Orthodox in communion with Rome) as well as being in a larger way a true witness of being Catholic. This diversity makes the Church "catholic"; otherwise she would be Latin and not "catholic" in the universal sense.

We have the green light through the admonition of our Holy Father in Orientale Lumen as well as the Council Fathers in Orientalium Ecclesiorum to regain our legitimate spiritual, liturgical, ecclesial, and theological patrimony.

Unfortunately, any "restoration" involves some aspects that will seem foreign or artificial to some. "Restoration" involves restoring something that is either lost or in disuetude. These aspects being restored will not be within the experience or frame of reference of most of those in the parish. Again, it takes much patience, charity, and education to weather these storms.

I have long ago lost track of how many times I have heard "we don't do that in this parish" or "I have never seen that done before" etc. The task often seems quite Quixotic, but any child has to walk before it runs.

The advances made by such luminaries as Metropolitan Sheptytsky, Patriarch Joseph, Blesseds Leonid Fedorov, Klementy Sheptytsky, Nicholas Charnetsky, the Melkite Patriarchs such as Maximos IV and V, and many others who followed are truly encouraging.

Even the results of the last forty years of restoring authentic Greek Catholic tradition from the post-Cum Data Fuerit era should give encouragement and impetus to continuing our efforts. No one said it would be easy. May God bless our efforts.

Are y'all callin' me a votesnich?

Here in Texas them's fightin' words.

Dear CZ:

I get the idea already from your graceful postings that you will be in for good times with your parish family. And that you know that a light touch may be required even if for you, like me, it doesn't come naturally.

I was specifically responding to the implicated idea of an "old country standard". And responding in a very broad way, certainly not pointed at any individual.

There have been a number of lost customs in the transition from old world to new world. Vespers, Orthos, Pre-Sanctified, infant communion (and in some cases chrismation), no questions they should be restored. There is little reason for controversy here. These were brought to America as part of our traditional practice. They have fallen into some disuse, or may have been considered too old-fashioned for our American experience; they need to be restored.

In the case of many other "Latinizations" talked about here, the situation is less clear. For example, we have had eucharistic adoration, stations of the cross, sacred heart devotions and corporate praying of the rosary in the old country. And we still do - with manifestly self-authenticating devotion and duch.

These devotions and this devotion are part of our tradition per se - that which was handed to us by our ancestors, and that which was specifically brought here by the immigrant generation. It was the spirituality of our founders and our saints, including our bishop martyrs.

On these matters, I am very reluctant to accept the substitution of an artificial standard - from some book, or (worse) from the practice of some other Church - that is alien to our tradition.

For example, Eucharistic Adoration has been positively ridiculed on this forum. But this devotion, so hauntingly beautiful in our particular practice, is recorded as having been an enlivening part of the spiritual lives of Bishops Shepitsky, Romzha, Gojdich, and Hopko. ISTM that we would be wise to recognize the beauty of our inheritance and, more importantly, to seek our spiritual guidance from among our spiritual giants.

We are entitled to be proud of our ancestors, and of our Saints, and the patrimony that they have bequeathed to us. And any suggestion that they had it all wrong, were second class etc. - words that have been used on this forum - them's fightin' words!!

There is a difference, between the "old country" standard and the vostochnik "measuring stick". Only one of these, IMO, is consistent with our being a Church - a living spirit and tradition.

Best,
djs

Hey Diak, I looked at that parrish and they are something special.I was so impressed with them that I wrote them and told them that they are a shineing example.

Hi djs,

Do we have any evidence that Stations of the Cross (Krestna Doroha) was already practiced in the "old country" at the time of the immigration of our people to the USA?

I have a theory that it wasn't. I've not seen any old (pre-1900) Greek Catholic prayerbooks from Europe containing the devotion, and the photos of our churches here from the early 20th century, where one can make it out, do not have stations on the walls.

I agree with everything else you've said here!