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Dear Lemko:

You got me on that one. I only suspect that it may be the case on the basis of things that Alex has written about the practice in Ukraine among both UC and Orthodox. But I am not sure and, in fact, also suspect that you may be right, owing to the fact that the practice (as I have experienced it) of this devotion is not especially nash-ized (in contrast to, for example, Eucharistic adoration). A whole lotta talking, rather than chanting, and a text that is, I suppose, the same as used by the Latins. It doesn't have the feel of "us".

On the other hand, the idea of "stational" devotions is as as Byzantine St. John Chrysostom (who picked up the idea from the Arians, or so I've read). And in duch, among whom, more than dobry Rusyns, would the contemplation of the suffering of Christ be more resonant? I have the sense of a people, like the Arimithean, "moved by heartfelt love, to kiss..." So it's easy to imagine that, whenever this practice was introduced, it instantly seemed very much in place.

Sorry to go over this again, but one more comment I want to make. A dear cantor friend of mine from the hard coal region of PA grew up in a majority-Galician parish that was primarily Lemko Rusyn with a few Ukrainian families, with a large minority of Subcarpathian Rusyn families. He remembers from his youth, when the congregation was largely still immigrants, that you could tell who was from where in the minutes before the Liturgy began.

The Galicians (Lemkos and Ukrainians) would be praying the Rosary, and the Subcarpathians would be praying Utrenja (Matins / Orthros) out of their zborniks. We all know which custom (unfortunately) won out, though.

Interesting. And I wonder if there was already a distinction in practice between immigrants form Presov vs. Mukachevo eparchies. My impressions come from childhood memories of what I saw practiced by the immigrant generation in their last years. And from what my Dad tells me of his early memories in the 30-40's. He remembers Vespers, Orthos, Pre-sanctified. These were gone by my time. I recall sacred heart devotions being chanted aloud before or after the liturgy. Corporate recitation of the rosary was perhaps occasionally also done, but it was (and is) customary, at wakes (in addition to, not replacing parastas).

You make a good point to consider: that there would have already been some evolution (or devolution) in practice from the earliest days, and some blending of traditions among different immigrant groups.

Dear Lemko,

Yes, while I would want to always promote the use of the Hours first and private devotions like the Rosary second, I think we can sometimes be too hard on our people for preferring the latter.

There is a simplicity and easy accessibility to the Rosary that brings one into an immediate experience of the mystery of the Incarnation.

My aunt who is now blind and in a home was never big on private prayer.

But she has no problem reciting five decades with me when I go to visit her.

She "stays with it" even though she has little patience for most other things.

There is no doubt but that we'll be saying the Rosary each time I visit.

When I leave her, the look of peace on her face tells me that the whole effort was more than worthwhile!

Alex

I hope more people will avail themselves of the knowledge and experience of the elderly folks while we still have them. I have an elderly Ruthenian Byzantine Catholic cantor acquaintance (in his 80s) who recalls that in his youth (in a Ruthenian BC parish) there was what we would likely all acknowledge as a more complete liturgical cycle including, among other things, Sunday Matins before Sunday Liturgy. Then something happened, 'what' he is not sure and I will not speculate.

I understand my opinions are suspect here which is why I hope those who are able will approach elderly folks who still remember and can comment on these matters.

The truth is out there.

Tony

I agree wholeheartedly. My mother (who is only in her mid-70�s) remembers many details about parish liturgical life that is more authentic than that at the height of latinization in the 1960�s. She doesn�t know the word �Presanctified� but remembers going to Vespers on Wednesdays and Fridays during lent and taking communion. She remembers that when her brothers and sisters were being baptized they were given �a little bit of the consecrated wine�. She also remembers the Church being packed for Saturday AND Sunday night vespers. She sang in the choir and stayed for both packed Sunday liturgies. Her family house was one of the designated homes for the blessing of Easter baskets (most people walked to church in those days).

I second Tony's suggestion to spend time listening to some of our older folks talk about �the old days�. We can learn a lot from them.

There were two Sunday Divine Liturgies in her youth?

Facts, interpretations, and speculations are out there. Discerning truth from this mix is a challenge. But access to all of these ingredients is required for getting anywhere close to the truth. Most folks may know only a handful of parishes very well, and many only one. So, for my own interest in our history and traditions, I hope that you are uninhibited in sharing what facts you do know, and the speculations you do have, so that we all can get a better, broader picture, from which we can better discern the truth.

My own framework of speculations is that there was a sequence of several influences that led to changes in practice during the course of our first century in the US: first and earliest would be the stresses associated with the mixing of Greek Catholics from different regions of the Austro-Hungrian empire; second the reactions and counter-reactions to Ea Semper and Cum Data Fuerit coupled with the formation of and organization of our Eparchies; third, the "Americanization" of the laity and clergy and its implication on church practice. Finally, in the aftermath of these influences, the present period of restoration. I think it would be interesting to learn more facts regarding the time-line of the development of parish practices in the US against the backdrop of these various forces.

Yes. The original church building was built around 1894 and I guess it seated no more than 150 people (it�s now an apartment building). The current church building was built in 1904 and seats about 400 (not including standing room in the choir loft). From what I can tell there must have been a need for two liturgies since it was unusual for any parish to have more than one Sunday Divine Liturgy. It would be interesting to examine the parish archives to see if there are bulletins from those days and to see when they went from one DL to two. Even when I was growing up there were two Sunday Divine Liturgies and both were fairly full.

I�d have to check to be sure, but I think that the parish once had somewhere between 800-1,000 families. My mother speaks of hundreds of kids going to �Greek School�. Of course, the then pastor and his wife contributed their fair share of children with their family of 17 kids.

Dear Administrator,

I read your description of your dear mother's liturgical experiences in the past.

I think I have it!

She used to attend a Russian Orthodox Church, right?

Alex

I suspect that church bulletins began sometime after World War II. In the "old days" (before WWII, at least) part of the reason the liturgies were so long in bigger parishes were because many of the priests read the weekly contributions aloud. There was no bulletin to list them in. (Although some of our parish bulletins still list, name by name, who gave how much last week.)

Dear Lemko,

That's right, Big Guy, that's right!

Get your priorities straight, will you?

Alex

In the 20 year history of your parrish you have had 5 different priests---that seems to be alot to go through in such a short time. Maybe with a little more consistency in leadership, it might help some of the problems you mention.

Lemko, this is one story in one place. The opposite has been true plenty of times as well. The bane of latinization has affected all Greek Catholics in North America of the Ruthenian/Ukrainian tradition. My first exposure to a Greek Catholic Vespers service (Vespers, not Presanctified Liturgy) was with the UGCC, not with the Ruthenians. And who has the married clergy in this country?

It was a Ruthenian priest, formed in the seminary in the 1950s, and lead the Rosary at his parish, who told me that he would not give my wife with my then-newborn son the first and eighth day blessings because he said that was "Russian" and "not in our tradition". A younger Ukrainian priest was at my house the next day, Trebnik in hand.

I'm not pointing any fingers because this man was a product of his times and formation as many of his time, but the point is that Latinization of the Greek Catholics has been across the board, Ruthenian and Ukrainian parishes and clergy included. Even the Melkites were not immune to this during the post-Cum Data Fuerit era.