www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization To fast too soon?

In response to the thread that referred to the cantor that was removed.
Is this not the tradition of the church, to have men (idealy) chanting or reading or serving, etc?
I don't mean to be uncharitable, but my point here is to suggest that at some point along the return to our heritage, we will offend some people. Several people have left our parish as a result of our becoming "too Orthodox". My deepest sympathies to those people and I pray they find a place that ministers to their particular needs. However, the directives of Vatican II with regard to the eastern churches and the movement of the past 30 some years points in a certain direction. Not everyone will be comfortable with this. One has to be cautious when defining organic development of the church and the patristic traditions. If these come into conflict, one's eyebrow should raise.

But there are many Orthodox parishes that permit women to read/chant, etc., so I don't see eliminating this in Eastern Catholic parishes as being "more Orthodox", it's simply one Orthodox way of doing it. And it's not necessarily modernist. I remember well a small church in Tbilisi Georgia (not known for modernism) where a chastely-clad woman was chanting the responses.

And, of course, in monasteries of nuns, the nuns do all the chanting, cantoring, singing, etc.

Dear Brendan,

Yes!

I LOVE those "chastely-clad" women in church!

Was the one you saw wearing any sort of head covering?!


Alex

Alex --

Yes, but in Georgia all the women (well, 90%) I saw in churches had head coverings. Not so in Romania, where it was less then 40% or so.

Brendan

In parts of the United States where there are very few Byzantine Catholics, one takes what one can get.

Athanasius, is it more Orthodox to have a man chanting improperly and with the filioque than to have a woman chanting properly?

If you believe that my problem is with "Easternizations" in our church, I think you haven't been to Houston and don't know me or the nature of the problem here.

Brother Cizinec, I think that unfortunately a number of folks would rather have the poorly-performing male than a female as cantor. "Tradition", you know.

Since I love music, I personally would prefer someone good rather than anything else. And sometimes I would prefer no "music" than poorly executed caterwauling.

I think we should give the Houston thing a rest, since very few if any of us have visited the community and really know anything about it. It's probably best to pray that the Holy Spirit intervene, guns a-blazin', and do what is in the best interest of God's plan for His people. (I've been to Houston about 3 times, and all I can say is: I hope that your church is air-conditioned!! I thought Phoenix was a fore-taste of Dante's Inferno , but you guys have it beat hands down.)

Blessings!

For anyone who has ever been to a Greek Orthodox church, I have a cute joke someone sent me, from a litany of 'How you know that you are married to a Greek'...

...if the first time you go to his/or her church, you think that someone is having a kidney stone attack, but then they tell you not to worry, 'it's only the cantor (psalti)!'

LOL!

In Christ,
Alice

For better or worse, it seems that the plethora of Greek cantors in the US were trained in the Dean Martin school of 'crooning' along with the dictum: Nasal is Good! And this is my childhood memory.

About a year ago, I had the good fortune to hear some students from Holy Cross do an 'all-night' service and they were everything different from what we are used to. One could actually HEAR the Greek so that if one chose, one could follow in the service book. Good enunciation, good phrasing, great projection and TA-DA!: consistent pitch.

I had to have me a Tylenol and a lie-down!!

Blessings! (in the 27th Tone!!)

Dear Dr. John,
Yes, exactly! Very good analogy! I have found that even those who like that 'school' of chanting have enjoyed my friend's joke with a good laugh!

Fortunately, just as you mentioned with the Holy Cross Choir, there has been some improvement here and there!

In Christ our Lord,
Alice

It isn't that I would prefere to have a male butcher the reading or chanting simply because he is a male. I was simply saying that if there IS a male, and he can presumably sing in such a way as to allow for a prayful atmosphere, then this is the ideal. The reality is often far from the ideal. This is so in my own church where the women just seem to be more open and available to serve in cantor/reader capacities. This of course begs the question of if allowing this "enables" the presumed apathy of the men in our church. Perhaps if men would feel compelled if no one else would do it. Men, seem to often not do something if a woman will do it for them. Welcome to marriage! LOL, just kidding. But seriously, if this is not exactly the case, perhaps the loss of the regularity of the minor orders in our local parishes is also a product of women becomeing more active. What I'm suggesting is that if men simply are apathetic for varied reason, then it makes sense to specify an individual to read or cantor, etc. manifest in the presentation of a male for the minor orders. Since we have women, the parishes felt no need and the hierarchs took no action. Hmmm, what say you Alex and Dr. John?

Dear Athanasius,

Good voices and cantors are as far outside my personal experience as UFO's, you know!

But with all this talk about "open and available women" who will do for you what men would prefer not to - I say, let's go for it!!

Alex

Holey moley -- and they call ME a flirt!

Dear Theist Gal,

You ain't seen nuthing yet

He'll get you when you least expect it - take it from one who has just found out

Anhelyna

Dear Theist Doll,

Aren't you glad you came back to the Church?

We have more fun!!

Alex