www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization My True Identity??????

My father is a baptized Ukranian Byzantine Catholic, my mother a baptized Roman Catholic. Growing up, my sister and I were baptized and received sacraments in the Roman Catholic Church.

I have become aware recently of God "leading" me out of Roman Catholicism. During this period of time, through surfing on the net, I was immediately "pulled" to appreciation and reverence for eastern orthodox icons. I began to have an intense interest in Eastern Christendom: its history, its liturgy, it theology, etc. I even attended Divine Liturgy at a local Ruthenian Byzantine Church. After receiving Eucharist there, a few hours later I had a profound "feeling" I was finally at home.

It has been only recently I have become aware of my father's different rite. As children, my sister and I were exposed to the Divine Liturgy in his church only on a few occasions. My mom just referred to this as "your father's church". End of story...no explanations provided to us.

I would imagine my father didn't "raise" us Byzantine for these reasons:
1. Out of respect for our mother's rite/church.
2. There was no Ukranian church locally where we grew up.
3. This maybe the most important reason: there was a lot of emotional grief experienced by our mother because of the different rites involved in the sacrament of marriage. My father's pastor scolded him and asked "Couldn't you find one of your own kind to marry?" Per my understanding of this situation, my father's pastor was refusing to "release" him or grant permission to marry my mom in her RC parish. To make this long story short, our mother employed the National Council of Catholic Bishops to "force" the cooperation of the Ukranian parish pastor...this is sad to type, but true nevertheless.

But this information has not really clarified my true indentity within the church. I realize, that I can change rites. But I am desiring more than that, I wish to embrace my true heritage. It is a burning desire. I have been reading all I can about understanding the differences between the rites, and differences between Eastern Orthodoxy and Catholicism.

I understand from reading posts on this forum what is involved in "changing rites". My questions are this:

1. I was informed from someone that since my father never signed a change of rite status form, I am automatically a Byzantine Catholic by my father's baptism. The person told me it was Canon Law, that when a father and mother have 2 different rites, the child(ren), especially the male child(ren), are automatically Eastern Rite Catholics regardless of where they were baptized. Is this true?

2. If this is true, would I be entitled to full membership and full entitlement rights? What I mean, is if married priests were permittable in all Eastern rites, would I be eligible to enter the seminary, if I felt the Lord's calling?

3. If again this is true, how would I formally go about declaring myself a true Byzantine to the pastor of the parish I would be interested in registering in?

God Bless you for your responses,

Vladimir
A Byzantine looking for a home not Rome.

Slava Isusu Christu!

Dear Friend:

According to the principles of the Latin (C. 111) and the Eastern Codes (CCEO. 29), the ritual ascription (What Rite you belong to) of a child follows that of biological parents - father first, then mother.

There is the canonical issue of "common consent":

Can. 111 �1 (Latin Code) Through the reception of baptism a child becomes a member of the Latin Church if the parents belong to that Church or, should one of them not belong to it, if they have both by common consent chosen that the child be baptized in the Latin Church: if that common consent is lacking, the child becomes a member of the ritual Church to which the father belongs.

Now the issue of consent is the clincher. If your parents both agreed that their children would be raised Latin and consented freely to have you Baptized in the Latin Church then you are Latin and would need to change ritual churches to become Ukrainian Catholic(But you would have to have participated in a Ukrainian parish for over a year and work with your pastor to have it done; you could not change ritual churches if lets say you were still attending a Latin Church). But if there was not a real consent on the part of the father and there was manipulation and scandal involved with regard to this case then your father would have to produce a written statement to that affect. If there was no real consent from the Father then you are Ukrainian Catholic.

Also the Latin Code Canon 112 states that the pratice, however, prolonged of receiving sacraments according to the rite of another ritual Church sui juris does not entail enrollment in that Church. ( In other words even though you were baptized in the Latin Church because your father's ritual ascription was Ukrainian Catholic, regardless of the Latin baptism, all his children are canonically Ukrainian Catholic. That means your ritual ascription is Ukrainian Catholic if again there was no real consent, to have you initiated into the Latin Church, by your father.)

This issue is going to be one that a tribunal will have to deal with. The Saint Nicholas Ukrainian Catholic Eparchy of Chicago refers all of its Tribunal cases to the Latin Archdiocese of Chicago. The Chicago Tribunal info is:

Archdiocese of Chicago Metropolitan Tribunal

Metropolitan Tribunal
Archdiocese of Chicago
155 East Superior Street
Chicago, IL 60611
Phone: 312.751.8280
Fax: 312.751.8314
E-mail: tribunal@archdiocese-chgo.org
JUDICIAL VICAR
Rev. Patrick R. Lagges, J.C.D., Ph.D.
phone: 312.751.8384
E-mail: plagges@archdiocese-chgo.org

You will need to aquire some things. You need to have a copy of your father's baptism certificate, preferrably one from his parish of baptism also one from your mother and yours: all needing to be certified recent copies; this can be done by contacting the the parishes involved. You will need to write a letter to the Tribunal Judicial Vicar requesting an investigation into your canonical ritual ascription. Preferably have the baptismal records attached and any other evidence that would help your case. You will also need to get a letter from your father stating that he was baptized a Ukrainian Catholic, that he attended a Latin parish because there were no Byzantine parishes around, and why he did not raise you and have you baptized in the Ukrainian Church; he needs to also deal with the "consent" issue in that letter. This will not be a changing of rites, if it was proven that there was no consent from the father, but rather a matter of factual evidence and principle of law in both the Latin and Eastern Codes: in other words the Tribunal will draft a Determination of Ritual Ascription Document which will be notarized by the Tribunal Office, which will state that you are and have always been Ukrainian Catholic; and that even though you were baptized using the Roman Ritual nevetheless you are canonically Ukrainian Catholic. This offical document will be sent to your parish of baptism and kept there, and at the Archdiocesan Tribunal Office, and at the Ukrainian Parish you are attending now.

Overall your case looks good. Just remember that in your letter requesting an investigation into this matter state only the facts; and when dealing with subjective matters, i.e. why you want to pursue this, do not state you want to do this because the Latin Churches are liberal or too modern et al; all you are trying to do is get this matter corrected, that's all.

Well I hope this helps you my friend good luck.

Oh, and the website for the St. Nicholas Eparchy is http://www.stnicholaseparchy.org/

May the Theotokos guide you!

In Christ,

Robert H.

+ Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us. Amen.

Dear Vladimir,

The situation with the Ukrainian Catholic priest and your mother is one that happened to my mother as well.

It has nothing whatever to do with the Eastern Catholic Churches, but with the great ignorance and rudeness of some members of the Eastern Catholic Churches for whom Christ is only to be recognized if He is wearing a Ukrainian embroidered shirt etc.

My mother's father was Polish and when my father's friends found this out, they actually went to the parish priest, after they had gotten engaged, to ask him to forbid my father to marry a Pole!

(My father's family was more Polish than my mother's, but they were very nationalistic Pukies.)

After hearing my mother out, the parish priest determined that she was, in fact, Romanian after all . . .

Or a "Romanuke."

The Ukie priest in your mother's experience was speaking out of ignorance, narrow nationalism, cultural defensiveness - or all of the preceding.

It had nothing to do with Church/Rite - but everying to do with rudeness and idiocy.

You turned out just fine, notwithstanding!

And you are, in fact, a Ukrainian Catholic, as this is a "go by the father" thing.

If you wanted to become a priest, you would simply apply to an excellent seminary (like we have in Ottawa) and would be received as a candidate in his prime for theology - and marriage.

Your baptismal certificate with the Church of your father is your ticket back into OUR Church, Big Guy.

Congratulations on returning to the Ukrainian Catholic Church (what kept you so long?)

The only thing you have to do now is to learn to spell "Vladimir" as "Volodymyr" and the conversion is complete

Write to the Seminary of the Holy Spirit right away and don't waste any time - before you have second thoughts

We've already lost Nik (although I'm kinda hopin' he'll come back after the first time a ROCOR bishop yells at him for not going over to the right shoulder when crossing himself far enough . . .).

We ain't gonna lose you!

Welcome back, once again.

(And you have my blessing to marry anyone you want, ethnic background notwithstanding - as long as she knows how to Cross herself the proper way - or else you can teach her, perhaps when you are holding hands? ).

Alex

dear Vladimir:

Alex is absolutely right [as usual!]!

Because your father is Uk. Cath., that makes you one! Simple as that.

Doesn't matter where you were baptised or by whom. Doesn't matter that you've attended a Latin parish all your life.

Unless you had gotten specific permission to switch to the Latin Church (permission from the Vatican {seriously}), you are now Uk. Cath. and have been all along! (Whether you knew it or not. Indeed whether you liked it or not.)

So, no need to do any paper - you're one of us!

Mazzal Tov!

herb

Dear Herb,

With the difference that Volodymyr here doesn't have to break the glass with his foot.

He can simply toss it over his shoulder after he's finished his vodka . . .

Alex

Sorry, Robert, but unless you are a canon lawyer (are you?) then I don't believe you should be telling him his case "looks good." Because these things can be a lot more complicated than we know. It was good for you to find the information for him but you should let the professionals take care of it.

In Christ,

anastasios

+ Lord Jesus Christ, Son of God, have mercy on us. Amen!

Dear Anastasios,

You are quite right.

Robert is no canonist and has no Ukrainian credentials whatever - he has no business commenting on this matter.

That is why I gave Volodymyr the straight goods directly and also did the Ukrainian name-change over the internet right away - free of charge.

How astute of you to jump right on this matter!



Alex

Slava Isusu Christu!

I KNOW not only from experience, but also through personal discussions with a priest/friend who is a Judicial Vicar in a local Latin Archdiocese and is biritual (Ruthenian). In this situation the Law is very clear. If his parents had consented to raise him Latin and he was baptized in that Church he would be according to Latin Code 111,1 a Latin Catholic.

Now, because his father did not change Ritual Churches after marriage to his wife, who was Latin, all his children would be Ukrainian Catholics IF he did not give common consent, now whether he gave consent would be something he would have to produce in writing; this document is the clincher.

The fact is he could not just go around declaring himself a Ukrainian Catholic; he needs to have a Tribunal, which the Eparchy in which he resides uses the Latin Tribunal to do their cases, make that determination and seal it by a document stating the fact. I had a friend go through the exact same thing. He was baptized Latin, but found out that his biological father was Ruthenian Catholic. He wanted to enter the priesthood in the Byzantine Church, but only had a Latin baptismal certificate; they told him that he could not be admitted to Holy Orders in the Byzantine Church until it was determined by a Tribunal that he was in fact Byzantine. He went through the process I described above. Now there is a difference between saying you are Byzantine and being one; the true test is when you apply for Holy Orders or seek Marriage in the Byzantine Church; you must have a Baptismal Certificate stating such or a document correcting your ritual ascription or a change of rite document. The Catholic Churches each have their own general and particular Law. The reality is if he is serious about wanting to know his proper ritual ascription he will get this taken care of via a Tribunal, period. Everything I have stated above is the previous post is what he needs to do IF he wants to get this solved canonically; but I think your comments are very irresponsible; he needs to get this taken care of in a Tribunal who will determine and provide him with a legal document stating that he is actually Ukrainian Catholic.

God bless.

I wish I could draw. I have a cartoon image in my mind of a little boy -whose one arm is being pulled one way by a mitred bishop and his other arm is being pulled the other way by a crowned bishop. And the caption in the balloon says: "b..bu..uu..t,... I only wanted to pray."

Blessings!

Dear Robert,

But our friend, the Volodymyr the Ukrainian Catholic, was never formally accepted into the Latin Church.

Attending the Latin Church is another thing that does not impact on the fact that he is Ukrainian Catholic.

If Latin Church attendance alone determined one's Ecclesial Catholic status, then I would be in trouble too!

I would have to throw myself on the mercy of Anastasios and yourself here, as I could not afford to hire canonical defence counsel . . .

He should see the Ukrainian Catholic Bishops and local pastor to settle things.

I would stay away from tribunals and canon lawyers for now.

And for ever and everrrr!

Have a nice evening.

Alex

Alex,

i can hear the voice of the good Archbishop Joseph (Raya) in your words on canon lawyers!!! He was always against such things. Why does the Eastern Church need such juridical creatures????

Peace,
Brian

Alex,

I don't thing you are reading my posts.

First, he said he was baptized in the Roman Catholic Church and not the Ukrainian Church. Until a Tribunal, St. Nicholas Ukrainian Eparchy uses the Latin Tribunal to deal with annulments, ritual ascription cases et al, decides his ritual ascription, meaning which ritual Church he belongs to, he remains a Latin Catholic according to his baptism.

Most Eastern Catholic Eparchies both Carpatho-Rusyn and Ukrainian in the US use Tribunals to deal with marriage cases and the case I describe above. This is however not proper to Eastern Churches, BUT currently they are used because it is too diffcult to deal with inter-ritual marriage cases, marriage situations between Latin Catholics and other sui juris Churches, without it. They are being used pastorally by the Eastern Catholic Churches for now. Most Eparchies in the US have the Latin Tribunals take their caseload. Now I contacted the St. Nicholas Ukrainian Catholic Eparchy and they confimed what my canon lawyer friend said about this case as outlines above. FYI: Judicial Vicars charge nothing to handle cases although it would be nice to give a donation to the Diocese handling the case.

The determination of one's ritual ascription is not made by the individual, but by the Church. And must abide by the canonical structures of the Church. The St. Nicholas Eparchy would refer him to the Latin Tribunal and they would handle the case accordingly.

The FACTS are:

1. He said he was baptized in the Latin Church
2. He said his father was baptized Ukrainian Catholic his mother was Latin.
3. He said they both agreed to raise him Latin, but there was some contraversy surrounding that decision.
4. He has of just recently decided that he wants to pursue this case.
5. He wants to find out what ritual Church he belongs too.
6. He wants to be Ukrainian Catholic.

The Law is:

1. He is Latin Catholic by baptism UNTIL it is proven otherwise by Tribunal.
2. If he wanted to enter the seminary, religious orders and have a canonical Ukrainian Catholic marriage in the Ukrainian Church he could not until it was either determined by a Tribunal that his Father did not consent to have him baptized in the Latin Church, which would therefore make him Ukrainian Catholic, or via a Change of Ritual Churches from the Latin Church if it was discovered that both parents did indeed consent to have him baptized in the Latin Church. Remember, according to the Eastern Code of Canon Law as cited above the child's ritual ascription goes from father to mother to adopted parent to godparent; if the father consents the children can have the ritual ascription of the mother which would make the children of the same ritual Church as the mother.

So, if he is honest he will have his ritual ascription determined by the Tribunal because he cannot canonically be considered Ukrainian until it has been judged to be so by the Judicial Vicar, who handles these cases for the bishops.
But I suppose if one wanted to be deceptive one could lie and say one is Ukrainian Catholic, but who could receive the Mysteries and do such a thing? The reality is Eastern Catholic Churches follow different canonical procedures then the Orthodox. We have developed a unique Canon Law which corresponds to Latin Code. Eastern Catholic Churches utilize this particular Law not only in relation to their Faithful, but also in relation to the Faithful of other Ritual Churches.
It is not as simple as one bishop calling another on the phone to say to the Latin bishop, " this person says they are Ukrainian Catholic so we are going to believe him and accept him into our Jurisdiction." The Law of both ritual Churches has specific procedures and principles for determining which Ritual Church one belongs to.

So again he must NOT be led into believing that he is Ukrainian Catholic until the Ukrainian Eparchy via Tribunal decides he is. He is obligated if he wants to avoid a canonical mess, in regard to marriage or Holy Orders or religious life, in the future to get this case solved and taken care of as soon as he can, and for his conscience's sake, according the the Church's prescribed manner of handling such cases.

God Bless.

Dear Robert,

Since you KNOW from personal experience, let me tell you of something I KNOW from personal experience.

My friend Ken's family was Greek Catholic and Orthodox but he was baptised RC and raised RC. His mother was a canonical RC and his father's family was Eastern (Catholic/Orthodox).

This gentleman approached Bp Andrew of Passaic and asked him how he could switch rites. Bp Andrew asked him if there was a clear line of male Eastern Catholics in his line. He said yes, and Bp Andrew said, "Ok you're already under me, don't worry about it." My friend was interested in attending seminary and was assured that there was no problem with that. The seminary thing didn't work out but that's a different story.

In Christ,

anastasios

Alex, if I wanted to do things my own way rather than the proper way, and didn't want anyone to care or let me know, I would have stayed in the UGCC. :p *snicker*

In Christ,
-Nik!

*This post and its biting humor in no way represents the official stance of ROCOR Caf� [rocorcafe.com] , its management, staff, advertisers, or Monday Night Football and is not directed towards anyone other than Dr. Alex Roman :rolleyes: *

First, try not to take this so personally.

Second, what that Bishop allegedly did was a clear abuse; if indeed he did do what you described. Because your friend was canonically Latin Catholic, according to his baptism, and needed to be released by his Latin Bishop; and for a hierarch to embark in a case of sheep stealing is a hefty charge.

Third, confirmation of ritual ascription is NOT the same a switching rites; it is rather a correction of one's proper ritual Church status. It is not a judgement, but rather a correction made by the Judicial Vicar of the Tribunal handling the case.

Abuses like what the allegedly bishop did have existed on both sides Latin and Byzantine. Many Byzantines have gone into Latin seminaries without ritual correction and visa-versa. But this IS an abuse.
Canonically, regardless of his ascestry, your friend was and is Latin if his parents consented to have him baptized and Confirmed in the Latin Church. Canon 111, 1 ( Latin Code) deals with this.

Now mind you I doubt very seriously if His Grace Bishop Andrew would of not consulted the corresponding Latin hierach; I am sure he took care of the legalities and canonical criteria for either transer to his ritual church for this guy or had his status as a Byzantine-Ruthenian confirmed as his ritual ascription by baptism regardless of his being received by a Latin presbyter.

And anyone can attend the seminary of any ritual Church; they just cannot be ordained in that Church without either belonging to that Church by being initiated into that Church, through change of Ritual Church, ritual ascrption correction, or by permission of both Ordinaries and of course priests of any ritual Church granted bi-ritual status may attend another seminary of a different ritual Church.

Sheep stealing is a grave matter canonically and pastorally. It gives the hierarchy of both Churches a bad name. What I am wondering is why you seem to "kick against the pricks" so to speak.
What I have described above is simply the process for helping Vladimir. Church law is Church law.

God Bless.