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Dr, John

you said, "As for glass, wellll.... But then again, I've seem some Waterford Crystal that was just magnificent and might be appropriate, and even a wonderful Czech crystal glass monstrance (with the appropriate jewels, of course)."

well, i did not want to get off in a Chalice discussion but the Norm says, "But preference is to be given to materials that do not break easily or become unusable."

I believe Crystal breaks easily.

What do think of TV screens and a Church devoid of any statues/art with chairs (remember Roman Rite) and No real altar as a Church?

Did I mention the Church cost over 5 Million Dollars To Build!!!!!!!

RC Guy,

While I don't agree with their use, I believe I read on the EWTN forum the Roman Bishops of the US have asked for permission from Rome to use glass vessels. I don't know if there has been a ruling yet.

In Christ,
Lance, deacon candidate

Dear Friends:

I have been involved in various church decoration projects both new and old over the years. I have very strong feelings about modern Church architecture.

I believe most sincerely that architects love to design churches. They design churches for their own glory and not for Gods.

In designing a church they are following in the footsteps of the great artists and architects of the past. I have heard on more than one occasion an architect describe a certain church he [or she] has designed as being their monument.

All this in itself should make one wary of modern church architecture.

Like it or not; not every structure is appropriate to sacred use.

When the early Christians decided to build their churches the model they found most useful to divine worship was the basilica. I don't know of one early church that was made like an amphitheater.

St. Mary's may be a Christian community but when I first looked at the photos I wondered if the church was located in a desert area. It seemed that the colours, shapes, and forms would be more appropriate to the American SouthWest, to Ethiopia, or Somalia.

I am going to save the address to see what it's going to look like on the inside.


defreitas

Yes, I lived in Arizona for ten years and I would agree that the color scheme and the design could also be southwestern.

But I have seen plenty of churches, Anglican and Catholic, in the Caribbean that are architectually similar to St. Mary's.

Florida is in the subtropics, and both secular and religious architects are recreating a modified tropical architectural genre that is becoming more and more popular in the state of Florida. If I do have a criticism of St.Mary's architecture it is based on its excess or exaggeration of a Florida tropical genre that is actually more muted in both design and color scheme.

However, they are not building exclusively for Anglo-Saxons. They are building for the Florida of the future and for the demographics of that future which will include ethnic groups, both Latin and non-Latin, which have their origins in the Caribbean and Latin America.

Speaking as a Greek Catholic with a certain hostility for cultural imperialism and hegemony, I certainly would never try to impose my aesthetic preferences on others.

In this case, "Father knows best" what is best for St.Mary's parish.


I'll leave it at that.

Sonny

[ 02-03-2002: Message edited by: Sonny ]

Hi,

I thought the Church was being built next to a water storage facility. The yellow building looks like a storage facility for liquids. Yikes! As Dr. John would say. Dan's right the Church in Homer is beautiful.

Nicky's Baba

[ 02-03-2002: Message edited by: Nicky's Baba ]

What about the TV screens on the inside that surrond the Church? How do you feel about TV screens? The inside is PLAIN with TV screens about 5 Big flat screens around the TOP.

Yes, many of the Parishoners said they wanted to Get a TEXACO star and put it on top of the Church because it looked appropriate.

Oh my Gosh... These poor Parishoners...

I'm not sure that I would be comfortable with the new Zenith screens in church. But, on the other hand, it is not infrequent that I see parents hoisting their kids onto the back of the bench so that the kid can see what's going on. And, in a place where there are lots of people (some of whom are vertically challenged), the most they'd ever see would be the back of someone's coat or shoulders.

So, in that case, I think I'd prefer the sloping pews (LOTS of 'em in Germany and in German-American CAtholic Churches -see St. Alphonsus in Baltimore, with little steps up to the pews in the rear of the church -- currently Lituanian national parish) rather than the TV screens. But, if the screens are the way to ensure that people can see what's going on, then perhaps for the sake of 'evangelization', we ought to consider them if there's nothing else that will work. Hey, the fundies do this stuff all the time; XYZ Ministries and their Crystal Hour of Power Burning Bible Ministries will do anything to enhance participation.

Of course we could go to smaller congregations at each Liturgy (not oftentimes a problem for us Easterns, but for the Romans, a real conundrum).

As for "plain" or empty space, it's generally a cultural thing. Apparently, the Swedes like it -- minimalists, you know. Mediterraneans can't bear to leave any surface unadorned, unpainted or un-enhanced by plants. (Although the outsides of Greek churches -- in Greece -- are often exemplars of Mies van der Rohe: "Less is more".)

If I were building a church, I would want stucco walls with surmounted icons. I would want a dark mahogany colored wooden iconostasis with inmounted icons, a 'panagia' behind the altar and a goodly number of chandeliers. Some electric, but some candles. (I love candlelight during certain liturgies, i.e., Presanctified when they cast just the right glow to match the tone of the Liturgy.) GEEEE! This sounds just like my grandparents' church. What a coincidence.

I guess it's mostly a question of taste. Some like southwestern simple; others like scandinavian angular; some like 'Mafia' baroque. But, 'de gustibus, non disputandum'. Just grenades.

PS: As someone who goes to inspect water/sewer filtration plants for the union, the church architecture pictured above DOES look like a 'sanitation facility'. Or, as I thought, some recently excavated Hopi pueblo in a forgotten part of New Mexico.

Blessings!

[ 02-03-2002: Message edited by: Dr John ]

I am sure we all have our opinions on church architecture. And certainly a group of Byzantines randomly assembled over the the internet are unlikely to be an ideal audience to intellegently respond to Roman church design.

But if I may speak personally. For myself, I cannot imagine leaving my parish no matter what architecural changes were made. I would no more leave my parish because of even the most horrid renovations any more than I would cease having Sunday Dinner with my parents and siblings because of their tacky furniture, plastic slipcovers, stained carpet, art featuring dogs playing poker and '69 Chevy up on blocks in the driveway.

I mean, ITS MY FAMILY, for goodness sake.

K.

[ 02-04-2002: Message edited by: Kurt ]

art featuring dogs playing poker

That's my kind of art. That's what I grew up with. Wasn't that done by one of them thar foreign artistes, or something?

Actually my dad had a "greening" version of that in his TV workshop.

Dan Lauffer

Dear Kurt:

I am very happy that you have never been placed in the position where you had to make that decision.

But what would happen if your priest decided to modernize your church by taking out an Iconostas, replacing old icons with modern wonders, and completely painting over nineteenth century painterly decorations in favour of white walls.


Here are some things that I have seen happen:

Fine carved marble altars broken up and replaced by roughhewn limestone.

Classically pious, good quality, statues of the saints replaced by brown, modernist foam-cast figures.

Tabernacles relegated to obscure corners of church [and not to special chapels according Vatican II].

All done with the support of the local Episcopal authorities.

I could tell you some real horror stories.

The Byzantine Church has had it easy and I believe that if it hadn't been for the love and devotion of the people for Icons, your church would have fallen into the same pit.

defreitas

[ 02-04-2002: Message edited by: defreitas ]

aRomanCatholicGuy,

The link you give isn't working for me right now so I haven't seen the example you give.

But your concern is legitimate.

And the beliefs and practices you describe are AmChurch all the way. Run.

Is this a danger to Byzantine Catholics? Yes. Owing to social/cultural pressure both from the RC big boy on the block and from the larger secular culture.

In fact...

Jos� mentioned:

But what would happen if your priest decided to modernize your church by taking out an Iconostas, replacing old icons with modern wonders, and completely painting over nineteenth century painterly decorations in favour of white walls.

In the Ruthenian Catholic Church in America in the 1950s and 1960s this happened, exactly, under a bishop and later archbishop (now called metropolitan), Nicholas (Elko), who saw latinization as the way of the future and in fact wanted to merge all Catholic churches into a homogenous, modern American rite. A spiritual son of John Ireland who happened to be an ethnic Ruthenian.

One of the problems in Western Catholic culture and thinking that has caused the mess described here is that architecture and iconography aren't really understood are are seen as mere decoration. This is not orthodox and certainly not Byzantine. The separation of theology from liturgy from piety has caused much of the Western mess today.

Bromides like "people need their sacred space' and "if it doesn't meet your needs, go elsewhere' sound like an AmChurch chancery or "wreckovator' pastor patronizingly telling a conservative parishioner who complains to mind his own business, shut up or hit the road.

Vote with your checkbooks — give your weekly offering to Aid to the Church in Need or Adoremus and not to your parish if it has gone bad. And, indeed, shake the dust off your sandals and go orthodox somewhere else — vote with your feet — as an absolute last resort.

The "but we are family' argument has merit but can be twisted to coerce the orthodox into going along with wrong changes.

http://oldworldrus.com

[ 02-04-2002: Message edited by: Serge ]

Serge,

I value your opion above most in this forum. I can't help but remember the Iconcalst period and the harm which resulted from it. Is history being revisited?

Further, I might add that the old St. Mary's is about the SAME size as this new Church. Why waste 5 Million dollars of the Churches money on such a stupid building? The Old Church was very beautiful. I am sure the 5 Million could be used in the school or somewhere else.

I believe the priest and the Bishop of Florida have Personnal agendas that do not reflect the whole Church. I only hope the parishoners vote there feet and pocket books and leave this Gym and the Libera priest broke and parishonerless.

May Theotokos Guide and Protect Us!

serge,

You might try going into the site this way: http://saint.stmarys-school.org/

Find the Church links...

aRomanCatholic@Work,

The link is still a no-go. Thanks anyway.

I value your opion above most in this forum.

Thanks.

I can't help but remember the Iconclast period and the harm which resulted from it. Is history being revisited?

Yes.

Further, I might add that the old St. Mary's is about the SAME size as this new Church. Why waste 5 Million dollars of the Churches money on such a stupid building? The Old Church was very beautiful. I am sure the 5 Million could be used in the school or somewhere else.

Reminds me of my city — the Roman Catholic diocese is treating parishes like chain stores, shutting down most of the "unprofitable' churches in slums and instead concentrating on the wealthy suburban Catholics. Uh, dudes, part of your JOB is to SERVE the POOR. Not condescending PC garbage — for real. I understand the reason for some cuts, but the mass closings were criminal because 1) there are blacks and others who need evangelizing; 2) there are poor Latin-American CATHOLICS living in those rough neighborhoods who need the Church sacramentally; 3) these places desperately need the Church's charitable work too; and 4) the mere Presence of Jesus in the Blessed Sacrament and the regular pleading of the Holy Sacrifice in the midst of these troubled places will help ward off evil. Invite the Franciscan Friars of the Renewal and other small, new, small-o orthodox religious orders (hey, let's see Tridentine slum priests too!) to help run these places if the diocesan priests are too scared to venture there, and pour $5 million into keeping some of those old churches running!!!!

(And perhaps, like I understand Emmaus House in New York is run by Melkites, some Byzantine Catholic Churches could take on one or two of these churches as missions.)

I believe the priest and the Bishop ... have Personnal agendas that do not reflect the whole Church.

Do you mean personal agendas? Seems a safe bet.

I only hope the parishoners vote there feet and pocket books and leave this Gym and the Libera priest broke and parishonerless.

Me too.

May Theotokos Guide and Protect Us!

More honorable than the cherubim and beyond compare more glorious than the seraphim are you, who without corruption gave birth to God the Word; you, truly the Mother of God, we magnify.

http://oldworldrus.com

http://dreamwater.net/edu/nativity/tour.htm

Here are some pictures of my church. I think you will agree with me that it is quite traditionally Byzantine....except for the confessional. It is very beautiful, though. I enjoy worshipping there.

Columcille