www.byzcath.org Forums Faith & Christian Life Parish Life & Evangelization Church Architecture

I cannot help but be inspired when I see the humble village churches in Ukrainian Zakarpattia. Generally they are not of elaborate architecture, but so many of them have large icons on the outside walls, especially on the facade: the Theotokos on the left, a matching Christ the Teacher on the right. Or sometimes the Holy Protection.

Kind of reminds me of the churches of great Ukraine and Russia (i.e., little Ukraine ) with magnificent icon frescoes on the outside walls.

These churches of Ukrainian Zakarpattia are humble of materials but extraordinarily wealthy of faith. Some of them may be viewable here: http://www.infoukes.com/churches/indexZak-eng.htm

(And yes, they are magnificent inside; each one is appointed like a cathedral!)

[ 03-12-2002: Message edited by: RichC ]

Dear RichC,

My mother is from Bukovina (Olha Kobylanska was her aunt, my maternal grandmother's sister).

Their Churches have a lot of frescoes on the outside, I suppose to accommodate those who stood outside during "praznyks" and the like when there was an overflow. (Is that why?)

I take my icons everywhere, they are at work, during travels, everywhere.

God is to be praised and worshipped wherever we are. I just have to remember to bring my incense along.

Alex

I wonder about the "cenacle" where the Last Supper was held.

Although we want to make sure we have a comfortable place to pray and to be with our brethren, I don't think it's so much the "location" or "style", but rather the spirit of the folks (or Spirit in the folks) who are gathered there. And whatever enhances the spirit of the community. Let's remember that our ancestors in this country worshipped and flourished in converted living rooms in the priest's house until they could afford something that would better accommodate the growing crowds.

As for converted oil tanks, well, it's just a matter of taste. Some folks shop at Nordstroms and Bloomingdales; others just love Wal-Mart. [But I do draw the line at black-velvet paintings or icons.]

Blessings!

Dr. John,


I guess that is were you and I differ.

Dearf +Ray,

I think you were born to be Eastern Catholic!!

Alex

Indeed, RC@work, but I hope that we can agree about the black velvet paintings from K-Mart!!!

Blessings!

It looks liek a spaceship!



Ality

You should see the Orthodox church in Milwaukee!

Axios

I would like to share with you the NEW Milwaukee cathedral:
http://www.seattlecatholic.com/article_20020228_Follow-Up_on_the_Milwaukee_Cathedral_Renovation.html


This is what the Vatican said about the church: http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/jul01/cathsid03070201a.asp

In summary the Catholic World News says, "renovation plans for St. John the Evangelist Cathedral and concluded that they violate several canon laws and liturgical regulations, including moving the altar from the apse to the center of the church and the removal of the baldacchino from above the altar, the relocation of the tabernacle to a tiny (15 foot by 20 foot) chapel, the removal of confessionals, and the installation of images of individuals who have not been approved for veneration as saints or blesseds."

http://www.cwnews.com/Browse/2001/07/15909.htm

I guess the Bishop of Milwaukee does not think the Vatican is important. Oh well AMCHURCH here we come!

The Seattle Catholics said, "Modern iconoclasts continue turning artistic treasures into pagan atrocities"
http://www.seattlecatholic.com/article_20010727_Weaklands_Cathedral_Renovations.html

I truly believe we are headed for schism in the RCC!

Dear RC Guy:

May I offer the people of Milwaukee my sincere condolences on the untimely demise of their Cathedral.

It's really so sad, too bad though that so much of it has survived, it would have been better had the entire structure been completely eradicated.

It would have been more artistically honest to have built a whole new structure than to have basterdized a fine old one.

My whole life revolves around art and religion. I am acutely aware of what is happening in sacred art & architecture and it is just pathetic.

I run an art gallery and my kid contemporary artists could have done a better, more sincere, and less intrusive artistic renovation.

Don't let anyone tell you that what they did to that church has anything to do with contemporary art, there is nothing current in their thinking.

I find that when an artist reverts to giantism in church decoration that he [or she] is just showing artistic impotence.

They have this one concept but are unable to bring this into an artistic dialogue with it's surroundings.

I could say more but why bother, I have been saying these same things for 20 years.

I would like though, to turn this thread into something more Orthodox.

If the incarnation gave us leave to depict God in art and icons, then how can one accept distortion or a stylish depiction of the Divine?

What purpose does a modernist depiction of God serve?

Is it an Icon, is it Art, or is it Decoration?

Please remember that when early or primative artists depicited God what they were striving for was realism.

defreitas

[ 04-10-2002: Message edited by: defreitas ]

I have to report many in the Orthodox world were quite shocked at the Vatican bureaucrats bullying in the matter of the Archbishop of Milwaukee and his Cathedral. It is the only time I know of my OCA parish priest had unfavorable words to say about the Catholic Church in his sermon.

It seems everything he is doing is already the case with St. Peter's in Rome!!!!!

The Vatican actions were not helpful to Orthodox-Catholic ecumenism. It played into every negative stereotype of the Roman Church.

Axios

Dear Axios,

I have two questions that I hope you can answer for me.

1. What was so bad about the Vatican's actions with regard to the Archbishop's plans for renovation of his cathedral? I mean, it's an affair internal to the Latin Church, it's one Patriarch's interaction with a brother bishop of the same particular Church. What exactly was wrong with it that it has not helped Orthodox-Catholic ecumenism? Are you saying that if an Orthodox cathedral were to be renovated in a similar way to the way the Milwaukee Cathedral was renovated, no one would criticise it?

and 2. What does your priest mean when he says that everything the Archbishop of Milwaukee is doing is already the case with Saint Peter's in Rome? I haven't seen either church firsthand, but I've seen pictures, and from the pictures of both, there seems to be a major difference between Saint Peter's and the Milwaukee Cathedral. To me, there's no comparison.

Thanks.

Milwaukee is just fine. The St John cathedral is liked by many people also. I can not really debate this issue one way or the other as this is an area totaly out of my league. But I will say that the way in which Archbishop Weakland was attacked was horrorable, to have supposed loyal catholics going to the secular news service to dinegrate him before the public eye - protestant, secular, muslim, buddhist, satanic worshipers, whatever is an high act of betrayal to your Bishop. You can disagree with him, you may even petetion Rome to stop him or if need be get rid of him. But they should have never tried to enlist the encouragement of others outside of the Catholic Church, especially those that like to publize discord within the ranks of the Church.

Another thing what are these unauthorized images? Images is a vague word. By those with less than honest intentions it can be used to manipulate the imaginations of people. Could these images of persons not declared saints be the photos of the Bishops that have served Milwaukee hung on the walls? Or is it the satute of Pope John XXIII that many of these protestors didn't want?

Archbishop Weakland took a Priest to task over this Priests indiscretions with an adult woman. I have good word on this. This was years ago. I won't say anything more on it than he went and payed for a lawyer for the woman *out of his own pocket*, the woman was lets say... vunerable. His Excellency Weakland did not have to have mass media attention to do the right thing when one of his Priest wronged someone very vunerable. It is a statment on his character.

1. In St. Peter's the altar is not in the apse but the center of the church.

2.the tabernacle is in a side chapel,

3. No American style confessionals are found

4.images of individuals who have not been approved for veneration as saints or blesseds have been erected.

I may be missing the intention of one of the statements above, but it seems something periodically hinted at by many Catholics here (or, as some of you say "graecophile Catholics").

I am reading the suggestion that the term and essence of a "particular Catholic church" exclusively rests with the Latin Church and the various Catholic eastern churches. I think Orthodoxy (and I thought most Catholics) recognize that dioceses are authentic and real "particular churches" as well or even more so that ritual or national groupings.

We know Orthodoxy has had a concern that the Catholic church considers bishops simply legate of the pope. But this would be no less a worry if this flawed theory was replaced by one that bishops are legates of their patriarch.

To be truthful, Orthodoxy has alway viewed the relationship between the pope and bishops of the Catholic Church to be a more signifcant ecumencial concern that the relationship of the pope and the eastern Catholic churches.

Axios

It seems to me that the old rule still applies: The Bishop is supreme in his own diocese. Unless there is an occasion of "public sin" (as defined in the canons), then everyone else has to butt out.

In terms of architecture and other decorations, there is always going to be variation; I love Scandinavian style furniture, straight lines and minimalist. I also like CLASSIC Greek (and Near Eastern) archtecture: plain marble or whitewashed stucco with brilliant primary color accents. But just because someone decides to do have a Mafia baroque design with curlicues, pediments and doo-dads all over the place is not a reason to scream 'bloody murder!' about the canonicity of the emendation.

Although I love the old 19th century church buildings in the U.S.: German Gothic, Romanesque, etc. (and I --on my own -- would only work to preserve them) I also realize that the pastoral issues must take precedence in renovations. If an RC parish finds that 96% of the people do confession in the 'confession room' rather than in the box, then a renovation that removed the boxes would be in order. (Actually the boxes with the mandated screens came about as a result of purported Medieval hanky-panky during confession. Thus, we have recently ended up with free-standing kneelers in open spaces with an attached screen to 'separate' the priest and the penitent. Legalism gone nuts, just because the canons required a 'grillwork'.)

If it's a question of 'taste', then ignore the geographic requirements of the canons regarding parish membership, and find a church where one can worship comfortably. And, if it means taking a drive, then so be it. (For me, an important element is: a church should really have BELLS! REAL BELLS! Not those stupid taped things, or the microphone on a tiny bar that gets electromagnetically tapped. Yuk. But I'm not going to leave a parish-home just because we don't have Big Bertha in the belfry. And I'm not referring to a choir member. Or because we have icons that are 1920s style. Or a head-cantor who lacks an internal metronome or -- Lord help us! -- a pitchpipe. It's just part of being a member of a varigated community. We take the good with the bad.)

Christ is Risen!