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www.wrightinwisconsin.org/WisconsinSites/Annunciation/ [wrightinwisconsin.org]

Mind you, I'm saying I like this church. It just that we Orthodox didn't have a cow when it was built or call in foreign authorities.

Axios

Isn't you Latins who have some saying about 'no accounting for taste?'

Actually the 1920's OK church is quite nice. It was very revolutionary for the day -- free standing altar, etc. It does lack the presidential chair VCII promoted. The "heavy" altar rail is a distraction. But, in the end, a beautiful place of worship that lifts the spirit is more important than rote and rigid application of "general norms"

Axios

Actually, Ray, I heartiliy concur with your ideas about the construction of churches. They should have dignity, and style that is suitable for public worship. Deciding how to do this is, for better or worse, a question of taste. While I really like Scandinavian furniture (I think the clean lines of teak furniture are just inspiring), I can also appreciate other forms of furnishing and interior design. (I kinda like Romanesque too, as well as American Georgian and Federalist. The Baltimore Cathedral is a prime example of traditional American architecture.)

The question is: since the focus of liturgical practice has shifted from congregation-as-audience to congregation-as-component of the liturgical celebration, the layout of the church building has to serve this purpose. There are, to be sure, church buildings that look like something NASA would design, complete with rocket siloes. Yuk. And I can't pray in them either.

But the fact remains that oftentimes the task of designing church buildings is left to the 'confirmed bachelors' in the clergy and the architectural firms that see unlimited funds that are not guided by corporate reins-pullers. So, they propose 'cutting-edge' stuff, the priests (oftentimes) have no taste [sorry guys] and the people are just hit with a fait-accompli. Unfortunately we also see this paradigm in public buildings - the result of compromise by political know-nothings.

Thus, the question is: how do we manage to get decent input into the design and completion of our church buildings?

There is an old saw that says Our Lady appeared in Washington DC over a field at Catholic University and said: "Build me a beautiful church on this spot". The funds were collected, the Basilica of the National Shrine was constructed and consecrated. A week later, Our Lady reappeared and said: "I said build me a BEAUTIFUL church on this spot."

Blessings!

(No painted velvet icons of the Last Supper!!)

All I can say about the church linked in RomanCatholicGuy's opening post is this:

That is one UGGGGLLLLLLLY church!!!

Guess I am spoiled to St. Ann's.

Now this is a beautiful and traditional church:

http://www.stannsbyzhbg.org/

And the first thing you smell when you walk in is the ever pervasive aroma of incense. You know what, it's like a kid walking into his kitchen and smelling Mom's apple pie baking.

He KNOWS that he is HOME!!

Cordially in Christ,

Brother Ed

[ 05-14-2002: Message edited by: Altar Boy ]

Ray,

I followed the Milwaukee Cathedral story with some interest since the Archbishop and I are related. And let me state beforehand I do not agree with all the Archbishop's views or share his taste in art.

It seems some in Milwaukee were going to be upset no matter what simply because there was going to be change to the Cathedral. They wanted nothing changed and I can appreciate that. However, after all the dust cleared, I can't say from comparing the Cathedral to GIRM, that the changes violate it in any respect. The altar is stone and elevated. While it is moved out a bit it can hardly be said to be in the middle of the church.

The ambo's placement is a little different but again I can't see that is in violation of the GIRM. If its elevation is a violation, than many ancient European cathedrals with the ambos ten feet high are in violation. I don't care for the modern art crucifix sculpture over the altar. However, the same artist has been commisioned by the Vatican. Pope Paul VI loved that kind of thing. Look at the Audience hall that bears his name in the Vatican.

The Chapel of Reservation and the daily Mass Chapel both look very nice and traditional. I don't see how the cathedra is any more prominent than before. In fact that is how it is placed in many Eastern Churches especially among the Greeks.

I guess one can disagree with points here and there, but I fail to see anything that called for Rome's intervention. I've seen worse examples. Also, the tactics of the preservationists were at times dirty, I thought. One of their publications complained about unapproved images. Things like Ghandi and Martin Luther King jump into ones head and later we find out it is a statue of Blessed John XXIII. The whole point of being named a Blessed is the person is allowed to be venerated, although they are not added to the universal calendar.

Again, I can sympathize on some points but cannot agree that it violated the GIRM in any major way if at all.

In Christ,
Lance

[QUOTE]Originally posted by Lance:
[QB]Ray,

I followed the Milwaukee Cathedral story with some interest since the Archbishop and I are related. And let me state beforehand I do not agree with all the Archbishop's views or share his taste in art.


Wow! You mean to say that you are related to ***THE*** Archbishop Weakland - Rembrant Weakland- the living epitamy of "AmChurch" Catholicism?

The same Archbishop WEakland who called Mother Angelica "offensive" and in regards to Catholic doctrine regarding the Jews said that "The Catholic Church needs to completely change its stance regarding Judeism and stop trying to convert them? THe same Archbishop WEakland who has women run all over the alter of his cathedral as if it were some temple of Aphroditi or other heathen shrine? The same Archbishop Rembrant Weakland who will not allow a single indult Latin mass in his entire diocese which leeds tons of people into such groups as the SSPX and SSPV?

Give him my regards

Robert K.

Robert,

Yes, Archbishop Rembert is my grandfather's first cousin, making us second cousins once removed I believe. I have never met him personally or talked to him, bu my aunt does correspond with him.

As for your comments, I ask you to cite sources. Again, I do not agree with him on many issues but I think the libel I see appear on the Web about him is unjustified. Having read a few of his actual statements, I see nothing supporting what many contend. He and our late Metropolitan were good friends, and it was he who cautioned me not to believe everything written about him. And, I might add, he was not the first conservative Catholic to say that to me.

In Christ,
Lance Weakland

Lance,

I am sorry but I do believe that you can believe everything you hear about Bishop Weakland.

For example,

Bishop Weakland does not want EWTN radion in Milwaukee see:

http://www.cwnews.com/Browse/1998/08/8305.htm

http://www.catholic.net/rcc/Periodicals/Crisis/2001-04/scott.html

In addition,

http://www.ewtn.com/library/MEDIA/MOTHERA.TXT

Regarding the Mass,
http://aquinas-multimedia.com/catherine/tobin.html

Regarding the Jews,

http://www.jsonline.com/news/metro/nov99/weak11111099a.asp

I am sorry but I believe Mother Angelica before I would believe Bishop Weakland since Bishop Weakland defied Papal authority on the church "wreckovation".

Be assured the Bishop is in my prayers!

God Bless
Ray S.

[ 05-19-2002: Message edited by: aRomanCatholicGuy ]

Here is another impediment to Catholic-Orthodox unity. When a ruling bishop does not accept the advice of a Vatican official, even one admitting he is acting on his own authority and not in consultantion with the Pope, a Metropolitian Archbishop is considered to "defy" papal authority. This vision of the papacy is a very real problem to us Orthodox.

Second, is the Catholic practice of episcopal authority being restricted by Rome allowing nuns or male religious to go wherever they want as a minsitry of the Pope, without regard to the local episcopal authority.

Well, its only been a thousand years. Give us some more time to heal this schism. It is not happening soon.

Axios

Axios,

What would happen if an Orthodox Bishop decided one day that Vatican II "got it right." The Bishop decided that he wanted to remove the altar and Icono screen and strip the church of all images. Further, the Bishop wanted to replace the chairs/benches with Tables (like a cafeteria). In addition, the priest would sit in the middle of the table and say the words of consecration.

Just curious how you think the Orthodox world would handle this event.

God Bless!

Actually, this scenario could not happen. While the individual bishop has a certain amount of leeway in determining the liturgical rubrics, it is the synod that determines the conjoint liturgy for the metropolitan province, and, similarly, for the entire patriarchal church. These synods are bound also by the patrimony of the Church, and these elements are contained within the canons of the Councils as contained within "The Rudder".

So, the bishop would be deposed by the synod if he went outside the legitimate directives of the canons. (E.g., removal of images.) Putting in tables and cafeteria chairs -- well, that isn't covered in the canons, so I suppose he could order it, but I suspect that it wouldn't be done. In the East, the laity have a legitimate expectation that they have a voice in the affairs of the parish, diocese and church. While "officialdom" may believe (and 'codify') their status, the reality remains quite different.

In Western churches of the later era, the image of "pray, pay and obey" became rather important, and remain, to a greater or lesser extent, the modus operandi. In the East, even among the more Westernized communities, there is still the memory of the 'collegial' aspect of the clergy and people. (The Greek Archdiocese has a biennial Clergy-Laity Congress with both clerical and lay representatives from every parish. They are able to make 'revisions' to the Charter of the Archdiocese which directs the governance of the Archdiocese. It's not clericalism, but collegiality.)

Blessings!!!

Dr John & Axios,

So, I see no reason why the Vatican correcting the Bishop of Milk. for his abuses should in anyway harm Orthodox/Catholic relations. After all if this happened in the Orthodox Church they would handle the Bishop in a much more serious manner.

God bless

Well, I don't know about anything else Bishop Weakland has said or done, but the statment on the Jews should be self-evident to anyone with two brain cells that connect, except he could change "Catholics" to "Christians." We all should take responsibility for past anti-Semitism as eloquently as Bishop Weakland.

On the other hand, there were bright spots. Here's evidence of past mistreatment, as well as condemnation of it.

"The Jews residing in the entire island of Crete have reported to us in a loud cry and with many tears that some Christians there mistreat them... At times the Christians unjustly plot against the Jews, as well as unreasonably injure and bother them. At times [the Christians] vehemently attack them. Furthermore, the Christians unreasonably hasten to mistreat the Jews, thinking that they will receive a reward from the God of All. For this reason we write this letter in the name of the Holy Spirit to declare to all those Christians who commit these unjust acts and cast false accusations against the Jews and bring unjust and unreasonable harm and destruction to them... are excommunicated from God Almighty, and are cursed, and are unforgiven, and remain bound even after death. Injustice and slander, regardless of whomever acted upon or performed against, is still injustice. The unjust person is never relieved of responsibility for these acts under the pretext that the injustice is done against a heterodox person and not a believer."

Metrophanes III, Patriarch of Constantinople, 1568

GO GET 'EM!!! (Sounds like the good Patriarch was no shrinking violet. Thank God!!!)

Blessings!!!

For an Orthodox example in the same state as the Milwaukee Cathedral:

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www.wrightinwisconsin.org/WisconsinSites/Annunciation/ [wrightinwisconsin.org]

Mind you, I'm saying I like this church. It just that we Orthodox didn't have a cow when it was built or call in foreign authorities.

Isn't you Latins who have some saying about 'no accounting for taste?'

Axios

BTW, on the matter of the duty of ruling bishops to be obeident to Vatican Department heads, I read in the L.A. Times that senior Vatican officials have objected to the US Catholic Bishop's firmness in responding to priests who abuse children. Seems like a similiar matter procedurally, though folks may have different private opinions on the issues.

[ 05-23-2002: Message edited by: Axios ]